40 car fields in Nationwide Series starting 2013

[Pabig]

Maximum Field Set At 40 Cars For NASCAR Nationwide Series

In an effort to strengthen the ownership base up and create a sense of urgency among teams to make races, the maximum starting field for the NASCAR Nationwide Series will be set at 40, as opposed to the 43-car field in previous years.

A maximum NASCAR Sprint Cup Series starting field will remain at 43 cars while the NASCAR Camping World Truck Series will hold steady at 36.

via poconoraceway.com

 

[Relly]

I like this move, especially since there were a number of times this year when only 42 cars showed up at the track, and this will make NNS qualifying more interesting too, getting to see people get bumped as opposed to just where they'll line up.

This will also will make it harder for The Motorsports Group (Key Motorsports) to pull their little stunt every week.

 

[Reno62793]

If you take the 3 TMG start n parks out, there is your field of 40 right there. I can't dog on them too much considering they gave me hot passes for this weekend's race!

 

[B.McKeever]

Personally, I think it should be set to 36 teams and take the winnings for 37-43 and add them to the 1-36 winnings.

If you pay attention, after 20-50 laps there are only 10-15 competitive cars, 25-30 cars still in race. This is not counting those wrecked within first 20-50 laps. Cut the field the 36 so Tristar and Key can't fill the field with 8 cars that won't make more than 50 laps each.

 

[Mo Neenja31]

I think NASCAR needs to limit how many cars teams can Start and park... It's ridiculous seeing 4 Key cars SnP

 

[NNS]

I think NASCAR needs to limit how many cars teams can Start and park... It's ridiculous seeing 4 Key cars SnP

Thats what I was saying

 

[canadienhits]

I think who this will affect off the bat will be teams like TMG, Rick Ware Racing, and Tri-Star Motorsports. Think they would most likely lop off one of their cars from each team. As for the "buschwackers", they have done a fair job at policing themselves (ok, so it took the points rule to help it along), and I think they are done scaling down their operations for the most part. I don't think it will affect them.

 

[evan07]

I think NASCAR needs to limit how many cars teams can Start and park... It's ridiculous seeing 4 Key cars SnP

Exactly its ridiculous for them to be able to do that. Maybe this will keep guys like them away. I understand why people S&P, but 3 to 4 cars on one team is crazy! That's robbery!

 

[RP Motorsports]

I dont have a problem with Key starting four cars. He's trying to build a race team without any help from investors or sponsors. He's not just going after a pay check or something. I route for anyone whos trying to break into NASCAR and start a team. More teams is a good thing. And thats why NASCAR doesnt chase them away. Not everyone has backers or major funding to start a team with, so they have to go this route.

Tommy Baldwin is a perfect example. He started off with one car, which he parked every week while he tried to build a team and find sponsors. Fast-forward two years, and he's already building his own chassis and continuing to expand his race shop and operation as a whole. A couple/few more years down the line, and his cars could be running top 10, and maybe even competing for wins.

Aside from all of that, does it really make that much of a difference that Key fields four cars instead of one or two? Because if he only shows up with one car, those other three positions are just going to be taken up by other S&P teams, or teams who will be running around off the pace and 15 laps down. Not missing much there. In fact, you probably wouldnt even know the cars parked early if it wernt for the scrolling ticker. So in reality, it really doesnt change much of anything.

 

[B.McKeever]

NASCAR created a monster when they cut the purses for CWTS and NNS. Look at the payouts. The CWTS pays about $50k-$60k to WIN. Even the 'cheapest' of NSCS races pay $65k-$70k for last place. Hell, Daytona pays $250k to last place. Look at the NNS purses. Do the math. Key shows up with four cars, parks three of them at $10k per car, that's $30k with probably $10k in expense for those three cars. That's only $20k "payout" to the forth car. Kenny Wallace stated, last year, that his RAB Racing team could be competitive on $100k per race - and that was even being conservative.

So, Key's # 42, 46, 47 make $20k in one race. Say the # 40 makes $25k - but has more expense, maybe $10k just on its own. That's $15k + $20k = $35k per week to show up with four cars! Hell, $35k per week is not a whole lot when you're talking about Hendrick spending $175k - $200k per week for EACH of his four teams.

I don't blame Key, Smith (Tristar) or Ware. They are trying to survive in a sport that has not rewarded them for their hard work, and then turns around to chastise them for trying to make something out of nothing.

Start & Parks may not be great but they are necessary for people to emerge through ground below Hendrick, Roush, Childress, Gibbs, Waltrip, and Petty.

Remember that when Childress started racing, they were actual cars with performance modifications. Buy a $2.5k car, invest $5k and have a race car for $7.5k that you would use from week to week. Purses may have only paid $10k to win, but just one win and your car is paid for. Now, cars are 100% customized and cost around $100k+ to build, each. That car can be destroyed on lap 1 and you collect $60k. That's a loss of $40k for one weekend. (That's what I make in a year!) The sport does not favor the "start ups" which is why we need the CWTS and NNS - but the purses in those series' are cut so much that the start ups can't afford to advance - hell they have to show up with four cars to fund one car.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

 

[SpeedDemon39]

The only teams that this will affect are TriStar Motorsports, The Motorsports Group, Rick Ware Racing and Mike Harmon Racing. However, all of these teams that start and park really make only about 34 cars to compete against each other. In my opinion, I like this rule because all of qualifying gets interesting and likely we will see less start and park cars, which can increase car competition.

 

[MattSRD28]

Exactly its ridiculous for them to be able to do that. Maybe this will keep guys like them away. I understand why people S&P, but 3 to 4 cars on one team is crazy! That's robbery!

Robbery? Who exactly are they robbing from? They're not the ones who determine the purse amounts for places 36th-43rd. Nascar determines that. Don't blame the teams for playing within the parameters set forth by the sanctioning body.

So what is Nascar to do? Reduce purse money? No, that's not fair to competing teams who crash on lap 1 before the S&P's can park it.

Remember when I put forth the solution to Cup drivers winning Nationwide points championships and Nascar did something very similar? I have a solution to start & parks.


Here's what I wish Nascar would do. After X number of DNF finishes - say, 15 - require the teams to go through a massive & very expensive equipment inspection to ensure that the equipment is safe for competition. When the same team DNF's 34/34 races due to mechanical failures, either there's no actual failure, or that's the most unsafe mechanical equipment anyone's ever seen. As the sanctioning body, Nascar has every right to step in and evaluate the situation, or ban the team from competition. Refuse the inspection? Fine, Nascar doesn't have to grant you permission to enter the race. That massive expensive inspection would carry a cost higher than what it paid to finish 36th-43rd for those X number of DNF's, thereby removing the financial incentive to start and park, while not reducing the purse money.

I think it would be an effective solution. It might put Curtis Key out of racing, but maybe when forced he'll sell all or part of his team to someone who does have the money, and desire, to compete? Sometimes people don't do that unless they're forced to because it's nice and easy to just park every week and collect a modest $60,000/team. It's time that changes.

 

[evan07]

Robbery? Who exactly are they robbing from? They're not the ones who determine the purse amounts for places 36th-43rd. Nascar determines that. Don't blame the teams for playing within the parameters set forth by the sanctioning body.

So what is Nascar to do? Reduce purse money? No, that's not fair to competing teams who crash on lap 1 before the S&P's can park it.

I believe they are robbing from NASCAR, the fans and anyone that puts a stake in NASCAR. The problem I have is four cars on one team doing it. I know that four cars on one team is no different than four one car teams doing it. It's just a joke for one team to bring 4 cars to the track every week and stop after 5-10 laps. Single cars teams yeah I get it they are looking for a break, but 4 cars on one team? Come on maybe they could put all their money into one car and run a full race for once. If you crash out that is totally understandable, but these guys usually don't wreck they just take the green then make the hard left into the hauler a few minutes later.

Your idea about how to fix the start and park cars was pretty good I thought. It may indeed put guys like Key out of NASCAR, but who would notice?

 

[RP Motorsports]

Robbery? Who exactly are they robbing from? They're not the ones who determine the purse amounts for places 36th-43rd. Nascar determines that. Don't blame the teams for playing within the parameters set forth by the sanctioning body.

The purses are actually collectively determined by the track (promoter), NASCAR, and contingency sponsors, with the track holding the most significant hand.

That being said, I agree you cant blame the teams. They're going to do whatever they can to make the most of the rules that are in place. If you dont like the way teams are making use of the rules, then you change them or make new ones. And thats why there arent any in regards to S&P teams.

Here's what I wish Nascar would do. After X number of DNF finishes - say, 15 - require the teams to go through a massive & very expensive equipment inspection to ensure that the equipment is safe for competition. When the same team DNF's 34/34 races due to mechanical failures, either there's no actual failure, or that's the most unsafe mechanical equipment anyone's ever seen. As the sanctioning body, Nascar has every right to step in and evaluate the situation, or ban the team from competition. Refuse the inspection? Fine, Nascar doesn't have to grant you permission to enter the race. That massive expensive inspection would carry a cost higher than what it paid to finish 36th-43rd for those X number of DNF's, thereby removing the financial incentive to start and park, while not reducing the purse money.

Theoretically, that idea could do exactly what it's intention is. The problem though, it would put those teams out of business. And NASCAR does not want to put teams out of business.

As I've tried to stress in these kinds of discussions in the past, these teams S&P because they literally dont have enough money to run a full race (tire bill, crew/personnel, room & board, etc...). So they park it early, collect the purse, and then use that purse money to get them to the race track next week to try it all over again. And the hope is, it'll attract sponsors by showing them they're able to make the field on a shoestring budget, and therefore they have potential.

The thing is, I think a lot of people have a certain disconnect, or have trouble relating the monetary amounts to the situation. $70k sounds like a lot of money, but in the world of Cup racing, its not at all. When a S&P team parks it and collects that $70k check, they're putting all of it into getting to the race track next week to try again. These guys arent pocketing it and making a comfortable living. It might be hard to imagine all of that money, but when you get into preparing a race car, paying personnel, room & board, fuel (for the transporter), entry fees, a few sets of tires, and everything else, that $70k is all but gone come next weekend. There literally isnt even enough of it to buy 12 sets of tires and then pay personnel and a crew to pit the car (as well as room & board for all of them).

It might put Curtis Key out of racing, but maybe when forced he'll sell all or part of his team to someone who does have the money, and desire, to compete? Sometimes people don't do that unless they're forced to because it's nice and easy to just park every week and collect a modest $60,000/team. It's time that changes.

The thing is, these owners/teams (including Curtis Key, Phil Parsons, etc..) have just as much desire to race as anyone else. Maybe even more so with everything they have to go through week to week. Theres no money to be made when you're trying to start a race team via the S&P method.

And thats all magnified when you're talking NNS racing. The average last place purse for them is $10k-$12k (depending on contingencies), and it cost more to run NNS now (with the COT), than it did with the downforce cars. So when Key collects $40k ($10k per car), he's spending all of that money to get those four cars to the track next week to do it again. And its all the same idea as the Cup S&P teams. They're trying to attract potential sponsors by showing they can qualify multiple cars into the field on a shoestring budget.

Thats why NASCAR doesnt have an issue with it, and isnt chasing S&P teams away. They're trying to build a race team, which is not easy in this economy (and a big reason the S&P method has become more prevalent). More race teams is always a good thing. Some may succeed and some may not. But at least the opportunity is there. If you go chasing them away, then you're almost guaranteeing less teams breaking into the sport, because there would be no other way if you arent starting out with major investors and sponsors (which are even harder to come by in this economy).

And at the end of the day, they arent hurting the competition. If they arent there, then you'll have either smaller fields, or a couple other teams who are just running around 15 laps down. So by allowing, or not deterring, what they do, you're at least giving the chance for more owners to come into the sport and possibly build a race team, that maybe could become another competitive team somewhere down the line.

 

[Harry Nurpplez]

This seems like a logical move to me. Its long overdue, its been years since all 43 cars even tried to go the distance.

 

[MattSRD28]

Yeah it's fairly well known why S&P teams do what they do.

Where it goes off the rails for me is how building team through start & park could take 10-20 years, if ever. Building a team through attracting investment and proper funding from the get go (Michael Waltrip, Tony Stewart), is far more successful. I don't think anyone sees a start and park operation and says "Hey there's an awesome investment opportunity!" and then goes and offers up millions of dollars. They see a team who finishes last every week, and is never seen on TV during the race.

A sponsor/investor is much more willing to take a risk while the team is still in its formative stage. Once a team establishes itself as a start and park team, it's nearly impossible for it to go anywhere. Casey Mears #13 ride is a perfect example of this. They tried the start & park route and got nowhere. Now that Germain has basically sold off everything and put the funding behind the #13 team, it looks so much more attractive than it did before. It performs well. It gets TV time. Now it's what a sponsor/investor is looking for, where as before it had no chance of attracting outside investment.

But going back to the sanctioning body, Nascar really has to ask itself if S&P's themselves are actions detrimental to stock car racing. By lap 5, both a 36 car field and a 43 car field with 7 S&P's looks exactly the same. The only difference is those 7 cars that dropped out need to be paid purse money. Purse money should be given to entrants whose presence benefits the sport. How is the sport gaining by having those consistent drop outs?

Even the Wood Brothers know that's bad for the sport's image. They're an under-funded operation that does it right. Instead of entering all races and parking half the time, they just run the races they can afford to be competitive in. That's what these S&P's need to be told is the best and proper way to start up their race team, while maintaining the quality image and integrity of Nascar. Having teams whose equipment is apparently so unreliable that they drop out before Lap 5 in every single race they qualify for does not do that. It makes Nascar look like a joke.

NFL wouldn't have 40 teams with 8 teams that forfeit every week. These teams aren't doing themselves or Nascar any favors by insisting on parking week after week.

 

[LarryFoyt50]

Teams like Rick Ware Racing, TMG, and SR2 Motorsports take advantage of the short field. The40 runs all the laps, but the 42, 46, and 47 pocket money so they can grow as a team. Many team expanded for the lower teams to get that lost money from one car. You see teams that need a cut for teams.

 

[David24]

To put things in perspective (mostly between Cup and Nationwide Series Purses) Dead last place in the Cup race last Saturday earned more than the Nationwide race winner the night before.

 

[B.McKeever]

I think you should fund a NASCAR team, Matt.

I think you're missing the point. If these guys didn't have the desire, they wouldn't be making a joke of themselves to start a team.

 

[RP Motorsports]

Where it goes off the rails for me is how building team through start & park could take 10-20 years, if ever. Building a team through attracting investment and proper funding from the get go (Michael Waltrip, Tony Stewart), is far more successful. I don't think anyone sees a start and park operation and says "Hey there's an awesome investment opportunity!" and then goes and offers up millions of dollars. They see a team who finishes last every week, and is never seen on TV during the race.

Theres no doubt that starting/building a team with investors/sponsors is the better route to go. The only problem, they are hard to come by, especially in this economy. Phil Parsons, Curtis Key, Joe Nemechek, Dusty Whitney, and anybody else who's done it, would obviously much rather do it with investors/sponsors. Its just not that easy though. So your only other options are getting out on the track every week and working the S&P method, or sit around and wait for a big-time investor or sponsor to show up.

But going back to the sanctioning body, Nascar really has to ask itself if S&P's themselves are actions detrimental to stock car racing. By lap 5, both a 36 car field and a 43 car field with 7 S&P's looks exactly the same. The only difference is those 7 cars that dropped out need to be paid purse money. Purse money should be given to entrants whose presence benefits the sport. How is the sport gaining by having those consistent drop outs?

I think NASCAR has already asked themselves, and determined its not detrimental (at least not right now). Otherwise, they would've put a stop to it right out the gate.

As far as the question of "how is the sport gaining", I dont think that can be answered immediately, and I dont think it necessarily has to be about an immediate gain. For the most part, its a long-term plan. So if a S&P team is able to grow and progress into a competitive team down the line, then that would certainly be a gain to the sport. As I've said before (and NASCAR has as well) more teams is always a good thing.

And concerning Bob Germain's operation, his Cup team started as a S&P team. They went the S&P route for a year before Geico jumped onboard. And then it wasnt until another year after that, he decided to close down the truck team and put all his efforts into the Cup team.

That being said, I'm not sure Germain is the best example for comparison purposes. He had already been a well established name/team in the community before he started the Cup team, so thats a big leg up on the guys who are showing up almost completely unknown.

Even the Wood Brothers know that's bad for the sport's image. They're an under-funded operation that does it right. Instead of entering all races and parking half the time, they just run the races they can afford to be competitive in. That's what these S&P's need to be told is the best and proper way to start up their race team, while maintaining the quality image and integrity of Nascar. Having teams whose equipment is apparently so unreliable that they drop out before Lap 5 in every single race they qualify for does not do that. It makes Nascar look like a joke.

I think this whole aspect of it (like anything else) is just a matter of opinion. Some may feel it looks bad, and some dont. Personally, I tend to side with NASCAR in that I dont really feel it looks bad. For one thing, when you're watching a race, you cant even tell theres five less cars on the track. And if it wernt for the scrolling ticker, you'd have no idea these teams parked it early.

At the end of the day, these owners know the best way to start a team is with investors/sponsors. They're well aware of it. They just dont have that luxury. So this is their only other option. How viable this option is? I'm not sure theres a big enough sample size just yet.

But I do think it can be done, as Tommy Baldwin has shown. He started off with virtually nothing. He bought one throw-away turn-key car, and parked it every week (sans a couple races in which he was able to attract sponsorship). Fast-forward three years, and he's now building his own chassis, and he has a race shop and operation that has grown (and is still growing) into what all the higher caliber teams have. I even got to check it out a few weeks ago and its no joke. He's got the 7-post pull-down rig, shaker rig, fab shop, in-house machine shop, and everything else you would see in a top-notch shop. And he's got somewhere around 50 full-time employees now.

So while its obviously not the best or preferred method, I think its been proven it can be done. And I'd imagine that has gone a long way in NASCAR's eyes, and maybe even helped to form their (lenient) stance on the matter.

To put things in perspective (mostly between Cup and Nationwide Series Purses) Dead last place in the Cup race last Saturday earned more than the Nationwide race winner the night before.

Yea, its a good difference. Last place in a Cup race pays a rough average of $60k-$70k. Last place in a Nationwide race pays a rough average of $10k-$12k.

But its all relative too for the most part. Albeit, Nationwide costs more to run now with the COT, than it did before, but still pretty relative overall. And the tire-sets limit, along with the sealed engine rule, have helped with that.