If the Chase had to be changed..........

[dalejrgamer]

Has anyone gone back and calculated who would have won the championships 2004-2009 if we DIDN'T have the chase and we were under the old rules? Just curious how different history would be....

Some guy named Jayski did, but we all know that everyone would have raced differently if there was no Chase.

 

[undedavenger]

Go Cousin Carl, 2008 Champion!

Away with the Chase I say. Somehow, after viewing that, ol' 4-time looks kinda pathetic.

 

[Cheeze]

Just an fyi here, if there had been a Chase in 1992, Kyle Petty would be a Winson Cup Champion. Yeah...

 

[dalejrgamer]

Just an fyi here, if there had been a Chase in 1992, Kyle Petty would be a Winson Cup Champion. Yeah...

That would definitely make him the worst champion of all-time.

It's not purist, it's manufacturing the title chase as I see it. No, don't talk about other stick-and-ball sports, that's completely different.

 

[brt3]

Actually, yes. :LOL:

NASCAR.com - Races - Standings (2004)
NASCAR.com - Races - Standings(2005)
NASCAR.COM(2006)
NASCAR.COM(2007)
NASCAR.COM(2008)
NASCAR.COM(2009)

Wow! That is really interesting. Most of those are pretty close so no reason to manufacture a championship with this chase stuff.

So Jeff Gordon would be a 6-time champ, Tony Stewart would be a 2-time champ, Johnson a 2-time champ and Edwards would have a cup championship.

 

[ValvolineMan]

Away with the Chase I say. Somehow, after viewing that, ol' 4-time looks kinda pathetic.

Not really, he would still be a 2-time champion.

 

[Markfan]

True. 2009 was unquestionable (thanks to Montoya), but depending on if you see the win bonuses as "legitimite", you could either see 2006 as JJs or MK's or 2008 as CE or JJ's, either way he'd be a 2-time, but the chase has made him look ridiculously powerful when he really isn't that consistent.

Also imagine this, with the chase, this is what the standings would be from 1967-1983:
'67 Richard Petty
'68 Richard Petty
'69 Richard Petty
'70 Richard Petty
'71 Richard Petty
'72 Richard Petty
'73 Cale Yarborough
'74 Richard Petty
'75 Richard Petty
'76 Cale Yarborough
'77 Cale Yarborough
'78 Cale Yarborough
'79 Richard Petty
'80 Cale Yarborough
'81 Darrell Waltrip
'82 Darrell Waltrip
'83 Darrell Waltrip

Now if that doesn't look like something that would take the sport out of existance, I don't know what would.

 

[Johnny 3 Tears]

Richard Petty 9 time champ Lol I dont think anyone would beat that.

 

[jvcrewchief]

I say dump it, and start awarding points for qualifying. Speaking of Qual. dump the top 35 guaranteed starting spots too. And finally no more start and parks.

just my 2 cents.

 

[undedavenger]

Not really, he would still be a 2-time champion.

Yeah, but it would take off a lot of his shine and El Gordo would be "Mr. 5-time". Who would rule the roost at Hendrick then?

 

[undedavenger]

I say dump it, and start awarding points for qualifying. Speaking of Qual. dump the top 35 guaranteed starting spots too. And finally no more start and parks.

just my 2 cents.

Amen brother! That ain't two cents, that's a billion-dollar idea. The post a few back that said those would have been good points races is true. In other words, the Chase has accomplished nothing except to keep a few decent drivers from finishing higher in the points.

 

[MattSRD28]

It's amazing to me how few people here understand the reality of sports in the 21st century.

The top-35 lock in is necessary because no team could ask for millions from sponsor(s), and then oh by the way, there's a risk your logos won't be seen on TV, and you won't get that ROI you're looking for, if we screw up and DNQ. No sponsor would EVER spend the money they're spending today with that risk. NONE. Just like Sprint would never spend the money to sponsor the Cup Series without the no-competitors allowed clauses in its contract. For them to spend that kind of money, these assurances must be in place.

The Chase is necessary because, as much as you all just want to pretend that the "stick and ball" sports don't exist and they're completely different, that's ostrich sticking its head in the sand mentality. That mentality makes Nascar a 20-race in the Southeast USA per year regional, nationally irrelevant, sport. While you don't want to deal with stick & ball sports, they exist. They are sports, just like Nascar is a sport. All of them compete in the sports television market against each other. The quickest way to lose in that market is to pretend it doesn't exist. If Nascar loses, Nascar as we know it with all the national glitz, glamour, TV contracts, sponsor contracts, top-tier drivers, and huge race track showplaces completely ceases to exist. That is not what you all want, but that's what you'd get if what you all talk about in terms of killing the Chase, killing the lock-in's etc, actually happened.

Live in the real world folks.

 

[Mike24]

The thing is...playoffs are necessary in traditional sport.

You don't play against every team, every week. You may lose to a bad team, by chance one week, and beat someone better than you the next (and never play these two teams again).

In racing, if you finish behind someone worse than you one week, you will most likely beat them 9 out of the next 10 weeks. Likewise, if you finish ahead of someone one week, you are not supposed to, odds are they will beat you most every other week.

This is why traditional sports NEED playoff systems, while NASCAR doesn't.

In baseball, football, and hockey you don't play EVERY team EVERY week. The regular season serves as a means to establish who the best few teams are in regard to the field. Then we take some away, and whiddle the field down even more until we have a champ. The playoffs are necessary because you don't play every team every week...and that is why people argue about the most deserving champion at season's end. A team may win because it got hot at the right time...which is not indicative of its body of work. However, they are neccessary because there is no other way. You can't line up more than two football teams to play a game to see which one is the best...you can only rely on one on one battles, and weed teams out that way.

Now I know what you are going to say to this, "Well, the same thing is being done with the Chase!"

Yes, that is true. However, since in NASCAR, each competitor faces every other competitor every week, there is no need to remove people from contention or to reset anything, as the whole season serves as a whiddling down process. You finish higher than someone 25 out of 36 weeks, you will be ahead of them in the standings. Since the season is so long, and everyone "plays" everyone else, every week, the weak ones are weeded out of the championship chase naturally, and at the end, the man who was better than everyone for the entire year is your champion. No arguments. He faced every one of his competitors every week, and had a better year than all of them. Racing used to be the purist form of determining a champion. The man who scored the most points won. End of story.


The Chase is unnecessary.

Now, "what about the tv ratings?"...

Well, that's why the Chase was invented...to compete with the NFL...which makes me sick.

Rather than step back and say how do we improve the on track product, NASCAR took the easy was out and developed a faux championship system which manufactures end of season drama. The Chase throws away an entire 2/3 of a body of work...winning, accumulating good finishes...and most importantly, throws out the mistakes that drivers make, and their DNFs...making total consistency over the whole season moot. Harvick, right now, is your champion to this point. He has been more consistent than anyone this year. Johnson and Hamlin have won more, but have been pitiful at posting consistently good finishes. With the Chase, they will start ahead of Harvick...which is sad. NASCAR cheapened its Cup championship with the Chase...

(Also, I have no problem with the top 35 rule. It is neccessary for the sponsors, as you said...and makes perfect sense to me.)



Now, I'm not ignoring the other sports here, I am simply saying that we are different, which no one can argue. I know that they needed to compete with the NFL for ratings, but there was a much better way to do that. Look to improve the on track product, for real. New tracks that promote good racing (notthis cookie cutter stuff) think Richmond-like, shorter races (to a point), the "let at 'em boys" mentality (earlier on), listen to the fans (not just the ones that follow you religiously, but those who are borderline and casual fans)...the answer was not defiling how we determine a champion. I know sports have become showbiz...but seriously. False championship drama was not, and should never have been the solution.

 

[MattSRD28]

Mike, I get what you're saying, but are you sure what you denounce as "the easy way out" was not the only solution that was actually practical and able to be implemented?

For one, Nascar can't order tracks to radically reinvent themselves. They are what they are. If a track wants to reconfigure itself, it's the decision of that individual track. Maybe there'll be more short tracks built in the future, but given current economic conditions and the past 20-30 years of history of what it has taken to get a Cup date, I'm not sure who would fund that sort of risky venture. Just about all the major markets already have major Nascar speedways that aren't looking to be replaced in the near future. What else can you do to improve the on-track product? Well look at what's going on with the Nationwide and Cup COT's. Those are good things happening, but there's no reason why those can't be done in conjunction with the Chase.

Apart from that...the biggest problem Nascar was looking at with the Chase was basically what's happening in Nationwide Series this year. Brad K has an almost insurmountable lead. He'll likely be crowned champion at least 1 or 2 races before Homestead. Does he deserve it with his performance? Sure. But, it also raises the questions of why I should care about the Nationwide Series championship battle this year, and why I should tune into Homestead at all. If I'm a casual sports fan, I'll probably tune into something else whose endgame isn't already known. The Cup Series can not afford to risk a precipitous drop-off in ratings and media attention that a champion crowned early would cause, and if you remember, before the Chase, a champion was almost ALWAYS crowned before the last race of the season. Matt Kenseth, the 2003 and "last" champion, was crowned at Rockingham - not the last race of the season - after winning only once all season. That kind of Nascar won't survive going forward. That's not the kind of racing the fans want to see.

What the Chase creates is a significance, a magnitude, and a drama that needs to be there in order to attract attention to the sport. You can call it false drama all you want, but that's a little like arguing that people should ignore pro wrestling because it's "fake." Who cares if it's slightly manufactured drama? Why is that a reason to stay away? The casual fan who doesn't know any different will take slightly manufactured drama over a totally anti-climactic end to a season any day. Nascar needs this attention if it is to survive and compete in the sports market.

Finally, your point about the Chase throwing away 2/3 of the season is flat out wrong. The first 2/3 of the season creates the Chase. It determines who's in the Chase, and where they start in it. There is no other way to make the Chase than to be in the Top 12 in points after race #26. For the best Chase position possible, a team must be highly consistent during the first 26 races of the season. Then to win the championship, a team must be more than highly consistent in the Chase. Jimmie Johnson's Chase performances have been nothing short of amazing. What was his average finish last year? 6.5! And that was after a 38th place finish at Texas. Had Johnson finished, say, 5th, in that race instead, it would have been 3.2! How can you say that championship is somehow unearned/false? And yet, given all that, the championship battle still went to the very last race in Homestead. That's exactly what the Chase concept is all about.

Racing used to be the purist form of determining a champion. The man who scored the most points won. End of story.

The Chase is unnecessary.

From a purely competition standpoint, I agree with you. But in today's sports market, that sport at its peak is a 20-race per year southeastern USA regional sport. It can not and would not be able to compete in the national/global sports market. The Chase IS necessary in order for Nascar to continue to be the premiere form of American automobile racing that it is today. Nascar made a brilliant move in implementing it when they did, and the tweaks that have been done it to it have improved it. This year all the teams and thousands upon thousands of fans are anticipating the Chase, and making special arrangements to be a part of it. Every single dollar of those plans, including all revenue streams, and all paychecks earned by all the workers can be directly credited to the creation and implementation of the Chase concept.

 

[dalejrgamer]

You can talk about how NASCAR would gain recognition. At the end of the day, once September hits, we all know what to watch (not NASCAR).

I mean, the only time NASCAR gets any sort of recognition is when someone crashes in the scariest way possible. And that's bad.

If NASCAR wants to be recognized in the nation, shorten the damn season!

 

[Mike24]

Finally, your point about the Chase throwing away 2/3 of the season is flat out wrong.

I was saying that the Chase does, essentially throw away 2/3 of the season. In the past, if you wanted to be Champion, you had to be solid throughout the entire season. Now, you just have to be good enough to make the top 12, and try to be outstanding over the final 10 races. The Chase allows someone like Johnson or Hamlin to have 6 or 7 mulligans, while winning a few times, to get right back into the Championship chase. Wherein, a guy like Harvick or Gordon, who have had very very few mulligan runs, get put on the same plane as everyone else, when, in the old days, they would be light years ahead of everyone else and decide the title amongst themselves. That, is what I am saying. The Chase manufactures a tight points race, when, in reality, 1-12 usually has people on very different levels, as far as how their season has gone.

I don't in anyway discredit Johnson for his 10 race stretches of brilliance. They are impressive and flat out amazing. I discredit him because I wonder where that rock solid consistency was for the first 7 months of the season. No question he deserved his "Chase titles"...but it is one thing to have the best, random, 10 race stretch of races, and quite another to be good all year long. All 36 races are essentially the same. You could, in fact, take any 10 race slice, and come up with a Champion from that. NASCAR didn't change the schedule in '04 and say, you 10 are special so you get to be our playoff tracks. No, they just said, hey, these are the last 10 races, lets partition them off and say whoever does the best here is our "champ".

From a purely competition standpoint, I agree with you. But in today's sports market, that sport at its peak is a 20-race per year southeastern USA regional sport. It can not and would not be able to compete in the national/global sports market. The Chase IS necessary in order for Nascar to continue to be the premiere form of American automobile racing that it is today. Nascar made a brilliant move in implementing it when they did, and the tweaks that have been done it to it have improved it. This year all the teams and thousands upon thousands of fans are anticipating the Chase, and making special arrangements to be a part of it. Every single dollar of those plans, including all revenue streams, and all paychecks earned by all the workers can be directly credited to the creation and implementation of the Chase concept.

I understand why you keep coming back to this point, but it is wrong to a degree. NASCAR was nationalizing in the mid to late 90s, and early 2000s. Yes, it took off in '04 wen Sprint came on board, but I strongly feel that that has a lot less to do with the Chase, than it does the fact that Sprint was not Winston. Winston was connotative of the south, rednecks, and tobacco, which limited its reach to other audiences. As a nationalized, well known cell-phone provider, Sprint could cater its advertising to seek out untapped markets around the US and the world. Yes, the Chase is good for $$ right now, but like I said, there were other ways to approach the issue. The Chase may be good for $$, but it is still no way to decide a proper stock car racing champion. You brought up the COT's, which I left out of my initial argument, but yes, they have helped the on track product. In reference to the new race tracks, that is just spitballing. People get tired of the same 1.5-2 mile d shaped ovals....which don't bring the best racing. NASCAR was at a point in the early 2000s wherein they could have started building new, non-cookie cutter tracks...they could have expanded to already built, different tracks...or expanded on tracks (i.e. Gateway, Pike's Peak, Mansfield, Disney). Instead, they go with expansion towards the same old, cut and paste, ovals that they always have.

NASCAR did not need the Chase to become nationally relevant. Sprint would have got them there. Expanding to other areas of the country, and showing off great on track action (like the trucks or the modifieds)...a grass roots campaign to showcase some of the hardest racing, in order to bolster interest on the national stage. That would have gotten them their too.

 

[Mike24]

You can talk about how NASCAR would gain recognition. At the end of the day, once September hits, we all know what to watch (not NASCAR).

I mean, the only time NASCAR gets any sort of recognition is when someone crashes in the scariest way possible. And that's bad.

If NASCAR wants to be recognized in the nation, shorten the damn season!

That's just the continuing public perception, via bafoons like those on ESPN and SportsCenter. They don't know racing, so they don't cover it very well. It will take time to break free of the positioning that NASCAR has in the non, and potential fan's mind...and ESPN/SC have never been helpful with that.



I do agree that they need to shorten the schedule, some. 30 races was comfortable...even 32...but 36 (while its a perfect number for me, as I can never get enough racing) to the casual fan is too much...too over saturated.

 

[undedavenger]

You can talk about how NASCAR would gain recognition. At the end of the day, once September hits, we all know what to watch (not NASCAR).

I mean, the only time NASCAR gets any sort of recognition is when someone crashes in the scariest way possible. And that's bad.

If NASCAR wants to be recognized in the nation, shorten the damn season!

I could not disagree more. And as a lifelong NASCAR fan, the NFL doesn't exist on race day around my house. Oh, I might flip over there during a commercial, but the racing comes first, chief. And the season is just fine the length it is. Only little open-wheel sissies run short seasons.

 

[moppenheimer]

Only little open-wheel sissies run short seasons.

 

[BenCrazy424]

That's just the continuing public perception, via bafoons like those on ESPN and SportsCenter. They don't know racing, so they don't cover it very well. It will take time to break free of the positioning that NASCAR has in the non, and potential fan's mind...and ESPN/SC have never been helpful with that.

Wasn't espn what popularized nascar in the first place in the 90's?

I think they cover it better than fox trying to be stereotypical of race fans, having hour long commercial breaks, and not advertising the sport.

On topic, I think what nascar needs to do is to keep everything the same, except, the car that won the regular season starts 50 points ahead of the second place car going into the chase (that includes the wins for all the drivers except the first place team because they won the regular season and because the first place driver shouldn't start 150 points ahead of the second place driver). My system would create more excitement for the regular season, and would give credit to who won the reg. season. The chase would have the same excitement as it does now and for me, seems more fair.