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Massive AI/Track/Physics Overhaul for NR2k3

Discussion in 'NR2003 Editing' started by dsmi155, Sep 27, 2014.

  1. dsmi155

    dsmi155 Well-Known Member

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    As RacerXero84 stated, #2, #3, and #4 are all hard-coded into the .exe. We do not have access to change these and it most likely would be crossing the line as far as what we can do. #1 is everything the editor is designed to change. Everything from the draft to downforce to torque, basically anything that has to do with the performance of the race car, can be adjusted.

    Ride height fix is possible, but I don't know how likely. There is so much we don't know about that editor yet. I am getting a really good group together who has some experience with it and hopefully once we pool our resources some of the unknown should clear up.
     
  2. dsmi155

    dsmi155 Well-Known Member

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    Need community help. Does anyone have any real-world numbers or resources for the performance of the current Gen6 cars? Emphasis for now would be on restrictor plate cars (body drag, downforce, horsepower) but anything would be helpful. We are having to rely on what we can scrounge up on the internet, so I'm hoping some folks might have some info they stumbled upon that would help.

    For the record, here are the current values we are looking at using and all the other fields that are being researched, if that helps.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
    volcanostephen likes this.
  3. labontefanboy

    labontefanboy Well-Known Member

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    @dsmi155 not sure if this helps at all but this is a blog from the author of The Physics of NASCAR. No idea how much information is on there but figured I'd post the link if you've never seen it in case there is good stuff there. http://buildingspeed.org/blog/
     
    dsmi155 likes this.
  4. dsmi155

    dsmi155 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, thank you! I have been using that site a great deal learning about the physics of stuff and trying to understand how to translate that in Papyrus language. There is a lot of great information on there!
     
    labontefanboy likes this.
  5. dano1990

    dano1990 Member

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    This project has really sparked my interest in this sim again.. Looks very promising, best of luck with it.

    I do have a couple of questions regarding this though.

    1.) Is there any way to make the AI recover from spins more realistically? Currently when they have spun out they seem to just spin round on the spot until they're facing the right way.

    2.) While we know lane choice starts and restarts and double file restarts aren't do-able in this sim, Is it possible to make certain tracks where the leader will always start on the inside or outside? May not be 100% realistic but could be a good compromise. For example (I'm trying to think back to races from this season now) I think at Atlanta, the start and almost if not every restart the leader went from the outside line, but at Martinsville the leader almost always went from the inside line.
     
  6. dsmi155

    dsmi155 Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad! I hope it lives up to its potential.

    1) Not that I know of, though there are some edits in the papy.ai that can make it look better.

    2) I think I remember reading somewhere that someone did something like this once (lots of "some" in that sentence!), but it's beyond my ability. As far as I personally know, I think anything pertaining to the restarts, or really the rules and procedures of the sport period, is hard-coded into the .exe and beyond our ability to modify. Some of our more knowledgeable people here might be able to refute this though.

    Just a quick update: We are focusing on engines right now, though I'm about to branch off and do some tire work. I decided to build off the CTS platform for our physics, because there seems to be more flexibility and less potential bugs. We have successfully transposed the CUP values to CTS and I spent a good portion of last week doing research for real-world values, plugging them in where we knew they would fit, and building a prototype engine and a body with correct drag coefficient and frontal area numbers. I am happy to report good progress. I used California and Texas as my base tracks. The throttle response, at speed at least, feels very similar to iRacing. We are still working to identify why the car seems "bogged down" at low idle and then suddenly takes off around 5k-7k RPM. There is a lot in the editor in regards to engines that we do not know yet, so we are still testing. This is why I am about to work on tires. I have a theory that the tire may be too grippy at low speed, and this bogs the engine down. We shall see.

    It did put a big smile on my face to know I was using what was CTS physics and doing 210 into Turn 1 at California and right under 200 at Texas. :)

    EDIT: Of note, using CTS we have also been able to solve the 18 gallon fuel cell, floating cars, and tires coming through the fender wells problems that were there when working with CUP.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
    bvc, Tetronix, FloridaFan88 and 9 others like this.
  7. dsmi155

    dsmi155 Well-Known Member

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    Two Questions:
    Does anyone have on-board telemetry from either the 2017 or 2017 Auto Club practice/qual/race showing their speeds either around the whole track or entering turn 1 (or 3)? Preferably from 2017. I'm needing this to confirm the speeds I'm getting right now.

    Would any of you guys be interested in helping test? We need people who will really get in the weeds and work hard, not someone who just wants to play around with the new toy. What I'm wanting these people to do is go through the editor (I will show you how) and change values and document what it does. The more people the faster we can figure some of these unknown variables out.
     
  8. ivan11181920

    ivan11181920 Active Member

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    I would be interested in helping not sure how big of help I would be but I am very interested in figuring the numbers part of this game out
     
    dsmi155 likes this.
  9. dsmi155

    dsmi155 Well-Known Member

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    In my testing of what does what in the editor...I think I might have accidentally discovered dirt track physics. Or at least, the potential to develop them. :eek:



    ivan11181920, I'll PM you this afternoon.
     
  10. Darren Ingram

    Darren Ingram Well-Known Member

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    I would love to help test, but my schedule is too busy to currently do that.

    The progress is looking great though.
     
    dsmi155 likes this.
  11. Matt Baker

    Matt Baker Well-Known Member

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    To compare you drag coefficients between iRacing and yourselves for a restrictor plate track and a speedway have you guys tried killing the motor at the starts of the back straights and letting the cars coast until you're at turn 3?

    The only issue would be that the track geometry between the two tracks would have to match up exactly. When I release my 2017 Michigan track, perhaps you could use that?
     
    dsmi155 likes this.
  12. dsmi155

    dsmi155 Well-Known Member

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    That's a good idea and I will probably do that at some point for comparison purposes but I'm not sold on iRacing being our gold standard as of yet. I am using them for reference as far as the "feel" of the car, but their motor and drag is just all kinds of wrong. I'm sub 200 going into turn 1 at Auto Club with iRacing when the real life guys go in there around 213 with the tapered spacers!

    I've got as many real-world numbers as I can. From what I've got right now, Cup's drag coefficient on non-plate tracks is around .35, and that is from a scientific paper comparing the performance of Nascar to F1 and Indycar. I've had a hard time finding the exact numbers for that, so it's subject to change and if anyone has more valid data please feel free to correct me.

    We are up to our necks in engine testing right now, hope to have something to show off soon. I'm honestly surprised the dirt physics deal didn't create more of a buzz.
     
    volcanostephen likes this.
  13. RacerXero84

    RacerXero84 Obnoxious old fart

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    When the AI does that, it'll generate buzz, man. The one thing that really takes away from dirt racing on nr2003 is, despite you being sideways (which if you manage to improve BTW, kudos), the AI is running laps pointed 100% forward without any dirt drifting whatsoever.
     
  14. dsmi155

    dsmi155 Well-Known Member

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    I might have something for you on that, maybe by this weekend. Have to do some testing.

    Just an update on the engine progress, copied this from a message I sent to some of my fellow .exe testers:

    I did some experimenting with the .exe I'm using to develop the Gen6 stuff using the Yates motor, as opposed to the straight .exe that's being used for general testing. Values I used:

    RPM-1, 0
    BMEP-1, 160
    RPM-2, 7400
    BMEP-2 232.81
    RPM-3, 8900
    BMEP-3, 212.22

    BMEP-2 was calculated using the Wallace Racing calculator using values at Max Torque for Yates Motor
    BMEP-3 was calculated using the Wallace Racing calculator using values at Max Horsepower for Yates Motor
    Redline was set to 10000 to let the engine breathe.
    Peak Power was 725.
    Rear Spoiler Drag was reduced to -0.0007.
    Various other tire edits (size, stagger, grip, etc.)
    I ran a 3.750 final with a 1.0 4th gear ratio at Atlanta.

    The engine looks and feels just about spot on, at least with the current aero numbers. Comparing to Hamlins telemetry

    Section of the Track
    Hamlin
    Me

    Start/Finish
    190 mph/8900 RPM
    192/8900 RPM

    Mid-Corners
    173 mph/8100 RPM
    173 mph/8000-8100 RPM

    Turn 1 Entry
    200 mph/9400 RPM
    200-202 mph/9300-9400 RPM
    I also had rear-wheel spin coming off the corners, as they talk about multiple times in the qualifying video.

    AGAIN, so we don't have the issue from before, I'm not saying this is 100% it. I'm just saying it looks like we are very much on the right track. I can play with the spoiler drag a big more and get the numbers pretty much spot on I think.

    Also, I'm VERY strongly considering dropping out of the .exe testing for just a bit to finish up my Atlanta edit. It shouldn't take long, most of the bulk work is done. I just need to do the banking transitions and move some things around. But if we are going to use Atlanta as a comparison track, I'd rather use the one I rebuilt that has accurate geometry, length, and width rather than NR2k3's version, as it is pretty off.
     
  15. dsmi155

    dsmi155 Well-Known Member

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    So Atlanta...what I thought would be a quick fix has turned into a major rebuild. I have no idea what the actual crap I was doing when I last worked on this track, which was well before I really dove into Daytona so a few years ago. Seriously, it was a mess. As such, I've pretty much had to do the same thing here that I did with Daytona: pull the entire track up and start more or less from scratch.

    Still, since I know what I'm doing better now, steady progress has been made. I'm optimistically hoping I can have it in a testable condition by the end of the weekend. For the sake of reference, as well as it being interesting, I've attached a comparison screenshot of the original NR2k3, Real Life, and my WIP Atlanta of the turn 2 transition. You can also tell the geometry is different in mine than the original, though it's not ALL that noticeable when driving.

    Pretty crazy how far off the original transition was!
    Publication1.jpg
     
  16. MCS

    MCS Active Member

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    Cant Wait for all the new stuff!
     
  17. dsmi155

    dsmi155 Well-Known Member

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    Believe it or not...updates are coming. ;)[​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Thunder98

    Thunder98 Same shit, different day. Admin

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    Probably the first time I've ever seen anyone actually render the flat track. lol
     
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  19. DAWGFATHER

    DAWGFATHER Well-Known Member

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    this has my interest
     
  20. dsmi155

    dsmi155 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for the lack of updates. After I posted the last one, it was brought to my attention that the image I used to create the track was slightly distorted, thus the entire track geometry was off in one way or another. I have, for the third time COMPLETELY re-worked the track and I must say I think it is so much better now. I have also done some "non-traditional" techniques in the editing to keep frame rates up and reduce the number of segments in the track to help performance.

    I'm getting close to have the track back the way it was before I tore it apart, so hopefully, news will be coming down the pipe more frequent now. In the meantime, here is another teaser. :)
    Daytona Experience.JPG
     

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