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Mueller Investigation

Discussion in 'Politics/Religion' started by Darren Ingram, Nov 29, 2018.

  1. Darren Ingram

    Darren Ingram Moderator Moderator

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    I feel like this deserves its own topic with the way the news relating to this topic has been ramping up the last few days.


    Yesterday, the big headline was Trump considering pardoning Paul Manafort, and this morning, it’s about Michael Cohen pleading guilty to lying to Congress.


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.dc282f0c5a46
     
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  2. RacerXero84

    RacerXero84 Obnoxious old fart

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    All charges that I've seen brought against people who had associations with the President have been on them and them alone, what's notable is that all these people Mueller is dogging are being charged with lying. Which makes them USELESS in any court or congressional testimony in the future.
    I'd still like to know what Mueller's scope is... seems pretty vast for any type of investigation I've ever heard of, and yet, still, there's no 'smoking gun' or anything linking the President to the alleged 'Russian Collusion'.
    I'm all for letting this play out, mainly because I'm fairly confident it won't do anything but hurt the Democratic camp over the next two years, as they investigate instead of legislate. Don't stop Mueller, let him do his thing.

    Because regardless, ultimately, what people seem to want to happen is the President impeached.... which takes a super-majority vote in the Senate. So unless they are assuming Trump will win 2020, and are aiming for control of the Senate instead and playing the long game, I see no way this actually ends in anything extraordinary, and will die, as always, on the Senate floor, OR, if it goes to a certain point of contesting, ends up at the door of the Supreme Court, which will result in a positive verdict for the Trump Administration.

    So while this dominates the news, I'll continue to live in reality, happily, knowing that literally nothing overly substantial will come of it.
     
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  3. MattSRD28

    MattSRD28 SRD Pick'em Series Commissioner Moderator

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    Of course nothing substantial will come of it. It's been years and still nothing of any real consequence has come of it.

    But, it makes money for the lawyers, it gives cable news and the rank partisans on the internet something to fill their time with and make clickbait online articles about, and it gives the nutball politicians on the far left something to feign moral outrage over. Everybody wins.
     
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  4. JeffJordan

    JeffJordan My name is no longer Jeff Jordan

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    It seems like the primary scope of Mueller's investigation fake news on social media, which appears to have been a primary factor in the election because there is a lot of evidence that it was planted there to help Trump win the election by Russian agencies. One of the main people charged in that is an associate of Putin.

    33 people and 3 organizations have been charged in the investigation thus far. Interference in U.S. elections is a serious thing in a country that is supposed to have a democratic process. I'm wondering, at this point, why:

    - Trump was considering a pardon for Manafort, even though associating with him further is a mistake.
    - What is going to come of the Cambridge Analytica scandal;
    - Why Trump keeps changing his story.

    The news on Cohen is a big deal because it says that Cohen, Trump, and the Trump Organization pursued a business deal in Russia well into his campaign. Cohen also stated that he violated campaign finance laws under Trump's direction. There is evidence linking Donald Trump Jr. to a meeting with Russians that Trump claims not to know about.

    The big thing against Trump in this stage continues to be the almost-certain obstruction of justice charge coming.

    33 people and 3 organizations were charged in relation to this investigation. That already seems overly substantial to me, and it will likely continue.
     
  5. RacerXero84

    RacerXero84 Obnoxious old fart

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    - Trump was considering a pardon for Manafort, even though associating with him further is a mistake.
    - What is going to come of the Cambridge Analytica scandal;
    - Why Trump keeps changing his story.

    To give you perspective on this whole ordeal, look at it another way:
    Nothing came of the Benghazi hearings/investigations
    Her continued association with Podesta and Weiner
    The Clinton Foundation-cash scandal and the Haiti ordeal
    The emails
    Marc Rich
    Uranium One
    .... and so much more.

    If nothing came of all that, do you REALLY TRULY believe that anything is coming of the Trump investigations?
     
  6. JeffJordan

    JeffJordan My name is no longer Jeff Jordan

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    Because there was no evidence of wrongdoing, yes. 33 people in relation to the special counsel investigation have already been charged.

    Not sure what you're referring to with Podesta, although if you're talking about the Pizzagate conspiracy theory, that had been widely debunked almost immediately due to lack of evidence.

    I also don't know what you're referring to with Weiner. She is associated with Huma Abedin, Weiner's wife. They were in the midst of divorcing as of the beginning of 2018.

    You're talking about the whole thing when she was secretary of state, right? The FBI found no reason to continue investigating. Again, 33 individuals and 3 organizations have already been charged in the current special counsel investigation.

    Haiti was a mixed bag. Not perfect, and not nearly worthy of investigation.

    33 people and 3 organizations were not charged in that investigation. Negligent and stupid, but not illegal.

    Oh yeah, this was shitty.

    This is a conspiracy theory with no evidence that was promoted by conservative media. There was no wrongdoing to be found.

    This is not a conspiracy theory. This is a real, tangible investigation that has already seen 33 people and 3 organizations charged with wrongdoing.

    I really don't like speculating, but Trump's overall reaction to the Mueller investigation thus far is EXTREMELY suspicious. The Trump administration is reportedly bracing itself for indictments. Trump perpetually tweets that he thinks the investigation is a "witch hunt" despite the fact 33 people and 3 organizations have been charged with wrongdoing. We will see where the investigation goes from there. If it was nothing, Trump probably wouldn't care about it.
     
  7. MattyO

    MattyO Well-Known Member Admin

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    @JeffJordan honest questions for you. Did Trump win the election because of Russia? Or do you think he's in office because Clinton and her team were completely and totally incompetent?
     
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  8. MrDude68

    MrDude68 Occasional Backwards Driver

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    Well we know that one of her servers was indisputably wiped clean within weeks after she was subpoenaed. Doesn't that seem a little suspicious to you? Not suspicious enough to warrant continued investigations, apparently...

    Also I frankly don't care what WaPo, NYT, CNN, and Business Insider have to say about anything. Please link to some other sources.
     
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  9. RacerXero84

    RacerXero84 Obnoxious old fart

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    My only real point in that:

    Investigation is going to do precisely dick.
    And Mitch McConnell put it nicely: "Dems will find out that this course of action, as we found out with then President Clinton, is going to be ruinous for their party".

    Nothing is going to happen, Trump isn't going to be impeached any more than Obama, Hillary, Lynch, et al, will. That's the point: NOTHING EVER COMES OF IT.

    So grab a drink, relax, and lower your expectations. He's the President for at least another 2 years, if not 6. Nothing is going to change, Mueller is going to end up looking stupid, like Kenneth Starr did in the 90's.

    I actually would love to see who legitimately thinks he won because of Russia.... no straddling the fence: either you believe he won because of Russian interference of some nature or he didn't.
     
  10. Darren Ingram

    Darren Ingram Moderator Moderator

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    What's wrong with those sources? I would agree with you if he had linked opinion articles from those sites, but those all appear to be fact based articles. These are all legitimate news sources, so I fail to see anything wrong with them.


    Besides, it's good to get a well rounded view of the news, from multiple sources. I'm sure as hell not a conservative, but I'll still watch TV and read articles from Fox News and the Blaze often.
     
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  11. MrDude68

    MrDude68 Occasional Backwards Driver

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    I clicked on the one link to the Business Insider article, and the whole article was "Trump seems nervous, this could indicate that, that might mean this other thing, etc." Where are the facts? It's all speculation based on the assumption that Trump is guilty. That means nothing to me.
     
    RacerXero84 likes this.
  12. JeffJordan

    JeffJordan My name is no longer Jeff Jordan

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    It's a lot of things - Trump won the election because voter turnout was not as projected, and a higher proportion of uneducated white men in smaller states voted than was expected. A Russian Organization, the Internet Research Agency, published and spread fake news on social media. This could have absolutely motivated more people to vote based on misinformation, most of which was pro-Trump and anti-Clinton. Here's a study from the Ohio State University that concluded fake news could have played a role. Washington Post has an article with some extra links summarizing it.

    I don't think the result of the election matters - people have been charged with interference in the 2016 election, and even if Clinton won it would have been a bad thing. Note that this investigation is led by a Republican and was assigned to that role by a Republican after the Director of National Intelligence recommended an investigation.
     
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  13. JeffJordan

    JeffJordan My name is no longer Jeff Jordan

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    I have a question for you. Why do you think I'm a fan of Clinton? And furthermore, what does this have to do with the current investigation that has seen 33 people and 3 organizations charged?

    33 people and 3 organizations have been charged in this investigation thus far. Is that "precisely dick" to you?

    Also, Mueller has not at all indicated that his target is Trump, and Trump wants the investigation shut down for some reason, despite 33 people and 3 organizations having been charged thus far.

    Here's the thing - while I do think it does lead to Trump, based on his words and actions thus far, that's only what I think. I want this investigation to continue because outsiders likely attempted to meddle in our elections. I want the guilty party to be punished for the crime, regardless of who they may be.

    The Business Insider article leads to a Politico argue that says people in contact with Trump say that he's nervous.

    Where do you get your news? I try to my best to stay in the green and yellow zone of this chart.
     
  14. EarnhardtFan

    EarnhardtFan Residential Twitch Addict

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    I'm surprised Conservative Review isn't here, I've been getting ads on Youtube for their TV station lately and it's fucking obnoxious.

    I agree, I think it ends at Trump and the fact that he wants it shut down is primarily the reason. Like, if it were to actually be pointless why not let Mueller run around on a wild goose chase and look like an idiot when he turns up nothing? It just seems suspicious to me.
     
  15. RacerXero84

    RacerXero84 Obnoxious old fart

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    You keep on with the 33 and 3.... how mnay of them US citizens? How many have gone beyond being just charged and actually FOUND GUILTY?
    Also, this investigation was to find Russian Collusion. Why is it that those that have been found guilty have been for something OTHER than association with Russia in an effort to collude?

    Exactly. Its going to amount to precisely dick. As ALL INVESTIGATIONS usually do. Lemme know when the elite actually execute fair judgement on the elite.
    I'll be shocked.
     
  16. JeffJordan

    JeffJordan My name is no longer Jeff Jordan

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    No, the investigation is not about Russian collusion, it is about Russian interference. Here is the document direct from DOJ about the assignment of a special counsel. Finding collusion would just be a side effect.

    I'll give you this: The original scope of the investigation was about collusion. That was no longer the case with the appointment of Mueller.

    Six of the charged are U.S. citizens, and all of the U.S. citizens have pleaded guilty to at least one of the accused crimes. Many of the Russian people and entities charged are outside U.S. jurisdiction, but knowing they have influenced the election would bring us better security measures (i.e., being aware of the spread of fake news). That already sounds like more than precisely dick.

    I have a question for you about the part I bolded. Why do you think Papadopolous and Flynn lied about meetings with Russian officials?
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  17. RacerXero84

    RacerXero84 Obnoxious old fart

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    My answer to that is simply "I don't care". I really don't. I think nations influence other nations elections all the time, and have, for decades, if not longer. Macron netted 115,000 euros from US entities, and Obama supported and drummed up quite a few foreign leaders.

    To say that Russia "interfered" is just naive. You can say 'fake news' this or that (although in 2017 news agencies had to issue well over 50 corrections in 2017 ALONE, so I don't think that is Russians, I think that is just typical piss poor journalism, as seems to be the overall standard as of late, it's pretty clear media outlets have a bias, and there is no accountability anymore for half-ass reporting).

    Ultimately, he won the Electoral College, thus the Presidency. He was outspent at every corner by the DNC funding machine, but in the end he was elected.

    Foreign entities are going to exert influence, that's what they do, from Chinese government backed hacking groups to European operatives to Russian officials, that's what countries do in an age where outright war simply won't work because of the concept of mutually assured destruction. The try and influence other nations to garner support for a candidate they feel is favorable to them (I still don't see Trump acting favorably to Putin, I think Putin would have much rather have had the Obama-backed Hillary, to continue their good relationship as Obama had alluded to during a hot-mic incident around 2012), or use economics to leverage support. That's the way the game is played.

    So, like I said, all this is just a dog-and-pony show and people's lives are being ruined for something that happens on a regular basis. So no matter what, it'll mean precisely dick in the grand scheme of things. Do you really believe that a few people charged and put away is going to alter what has been happening all this time? I sure don't.

    And here's another interesting anecdote: why is nobody screaming about Russia interfering in the 2018 election, I wonder, if it is such a big important issue as the MSM wants us to believe?

    Answer: because the people screaming about it came out on top. 'Nothing to see here' when you are the winner, I guess.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
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  18. JeffJordan

    JeffJordan My name is no longer Jeff Jordan

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    I think I've made my point about everything else. Do you have a source on this? I tried searching it up and I couldn't find anything.
     
  19. RacerXero84

    RacerXero84 Obnoxious old fart

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    Trying to find the link again, but here's another interesting one: He's under investigation for campaign funds

    Also you may have made your points, but you haven't responded to the concept of foreign nations exerting influence over other nations as described.... people keep acting like this is something new.... when it really isn't.

    Seems society is made up of people who think of how the world should work, and people that understand how it actually works.

    I made what I think are some valid points about the selective outrage of foreign influences.... and "I think I've made my point about everything else." is your response? Seems like I pointed out a line of consideration that you seem to want to avoid.... at least, that is what it appears to be....
     
  20. JeffJordan

    JeffJordan My name is no longer Jeff Jordan

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    Sure, I'll bite.

    You're overgeneralizing when you're stating that nations exert influence over other nations. Of course they do! But actively meddling in the election by spreading propaganda is not the same as Barack Obama praising a foreign leader. That Macron link also says nothing U.S. organizations donating to him. Russian organizations unambiguously meddled in the U.S election. This is not an "all the time" thing. I looked up foreign electoral intervention, and found significant information on the Italian general election in 1948, and the U.S. interfering in Chile in the 1970's. There wasn't too much else.

    That's besides the point - why does the newness of a problem write off the problem in your eyes?

    I'm really doing my best to fact-check everything I've typed and made sure the sources I've shared are credible, and I don't really appreciate this response. I like you, I think you're a good guy, but please don't talk down to me, especially when most of your claims are just assertions. We can do this politely.

    There's just not much else to say that I haven't already said. This is a bipartisan problem that has been spearheaded by members of both parties, and the investigation is led by a Republican assigned to that post by a Republican.

    This is also true of the 2018 election. Dan Coats and Christopher Wray both believed that there was active meddling in the 2018 election, and a Russian woman in connection with the Internet Research Agency was charged in October. She was charged outside of the Mueller investigation. A lot of the 2018 activities are likely connected to 2016 activities, and of course Democrats are angrier about the latter, while Republicans aren't happy about the former. Neither of them are wrong.
     
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