NASCAR to Change Points Format AGAIN

[Kevin_McAdams]

NASCAR Chairman and CEO Brian France has said repeatedly that the sanctioning body likely will change its points structure again in 2011. Whether winning becomes more of a factor remains to be seen, but expect big changes next season. France is expected to announce the new system Jan. 21, 2011, during winter testing at Daytona International Speedway

 

[HMAC80]

Duh.

http://www.simracingdesign.com/nascar-discussion/22227-nascar-change-chase-again-2011-a.html

 

[Kevin_McAdams]

Nothing to do with the chase...

 

[HMAC80]

Oops. Well aren't I just a wart on a baboon's ass?

 

[MattSRD28]

Hopeful that this is the Cup-drivers-in-Nationwide-problem solution announcement, and I hope it's my idea. :biggrin:

For those who don't know what that means, I came up with the idea of Cup drivers not scoring drivers points in the Nationwide Series but their teams scoring owners points based on their driver's finish several weeks before the rumors of that kind of system being considered.

That said, Nascar and I do differ on a key issue. Looks like Nascar's going to have each driver pre-determine which series he wants to score drivers points in. That sounds good, until you have a case like Kevin Harvick 2001 where Kevin began the season in the Busch (now Nationwide) Series with the intention of running 5 races in Cup, but then took over for Dale Earnhardt after his fatal crash. Harvick ran the rest of the Cup Series and actually was in contention for the Cup championship that year, having no intention of competing for the Cup championship when the season started. Harvick did intention on competion for the Busch Series title in 2001, and was the champion that year.

Under the proposed rules, Kevin would have been ineligble to score drivers points in the Cup Series that year because of his pre-selection of the Busch Series. There has been no mention of what Nascar will do should a driver decide to change his mind after declaring his series before Daytona. What happens then?

My idea didn't have that problem. I saw it as something quite simple - F/T Cup Series drivers are not eligible to score drivers points in any other Nascar series. If any Cup Series race on the schedule is skipped or DNQ'd, the driver is no longer a F/T Cup driver, and is therefore eligible to score points in other Nascar series. Period. End of story.

The one hiccup would be race #1 on the schedule, in which case the Truck/Nationwide official drivers points would have to wait until after the completion of Lap 1 of the Daytona 500 in order to know with certainty who is earning Cup Series drivers points in the Daytona 500, and is therefore ineligible to earn drivers points in the Truck/Nationwide Daytona races.

I don't think Nascar's going to adopt my idea in that regard, but they will eventually realize the flaw in their design, have egg on their face, and have to come up with some messy solution on the spot. In other words, someone's going to get screwed.

 

[Johnson #48]

My idea didn't have that problem. I saw it as something quite simple - F/T Cup Series drivers are not eligible to score drivers points in any other Nascar series. If any Cup Series race on the schedule is skipped or DNQ'd, the driver is no longer a F/T Cup driver, and is therefore eligible to score points in other Nascar series. Period. End of story.

I have one (small) problem with this idea. Say Kyle Busch is leading the standings before the chase and is the first to be locked in. He can now afford to take a week off and let say, JJ Yeley drive for a race. Kyle is no longer a full time cup driver and and score points in the Nationwide series again.

 

[Ten0r]

Well think of it this way, Cup drives DON'T take a week off . Someone like Kyle Busch and Jimmie Johnson aren't going to take a week off in Cup. This means that they're full time drivers no matter what. Matt's idea works like so:

Regan Smith - #78 Furniture Row - starts the first 5 races. He is currently considered a full time cup driver. At the 6th race, Furniture Row takes the week off due to costs so Smith does not run. Smith is no longer a Full Time driver. Because of this, Smith and Furniture Row's #78 car do not receive ANY points, thus dropping them in the standings and Smith is able to gain points in other series..

Why would a full time cup team in contention for the championship do such a thing. Kyle especially can't do it, but I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't try if Matt's system went into effect.

The flaw in Matt's request is the Chase. The idea that you have to run every race to be in chase contention isn't proven yet. It hurts you if you're not, but it hasn't been proven to be deadly. If you skipped the second race in cup so that you could earn points in other series, you'd be at an extreme disadvantage against other drivers, however you'd be getting points in other series. Those other series you would be down a race because you couldn't compete at Daytona for points pending being a cup driver.
-----------------------
One thing I'd add to Matt's system is that the first 5 races are exempt from the stipulation. The reason I say this is exactly the example above. Regan Smith doesn't want to take the weekends off so he aligns himself with a nationwide team. He plans to run the entire Nationwide schedule and run for a championship, but he can't because the first race would be non points race based upon his current standing.

Another issue I foresee, Rookies. Let cup rookies run one season as a dual series contender. A rookie isn't going to come in and beat Jimmie Johnson so there's no fear of winning the championship in both series. The rookie needs all the track time possible.

 

[MillsLayne]

I have one (small) problem with this idea. Say Kyle Busch is leading the standings before the chase and is the first to be locked in. He can now afford to take a week off and let say, JJ Yeley drive for a race. Kyle is no longer a full time cup driver and and score points in the Nationwide series again.

But that late in the season, it won't matter if he's able to score points because he'll have been scoring points only in Cup. Or won't that matter? I'm kind of confused, actually. lol

 

[MattSRD28]

Say Kyle Busch is leading the standings before the chase and is the first to be locked in. He can now afford to take a week off and let say, JJ Yeley drive for a race. Kyle is no longer a full time cup driver and and score points in the Nationwide series again.

Well first, that'll never happen. No driver has ever intentionally taken a race off while being a champion, or in contention for a championship.

But, as a hypothetical, the moment Kyle misses a Cup race is when he'll become eligible to score points in other series. He won't be able to score points before that moment. There is no retroactive awarding of points going on in my system. So, even if Kyle did start earning Nationwide drivers points, it would be totally inconsequential to the Nationwide championship which is what the whole issue is about.

Regan Smith - #78 Furniture Row - starts the first 5 races. He is currently considered a full time cup driver. At the 6th race, Furniture Row takes the week off due to costs so Smith does not run. Smith is no longer a Full Time driver. Because of this, Smith and Furniture Row's #78 car do not receive ANY points, thus dropping them in the standings and Smith is able to gain points in other series..

To be clear, they don't receive points because they skipped the race, not because of any rule in my system.

Yes, at that moment Smith's status would change to P/T and he could start earning drivers points in other series.

The flaw in Matt's request is the Chase. The idea that you have to run every race to be in chase contention isn't proven yet. It hurts you if you're not, but it hasn't been proven to be deadly. If you skipped the second race in cup so that you could earn points in other series, you'd be at an extreme disadvantage against other drivers, however you'd be getting points in other series. Those other series you would be down a race because you couldn't compete at Daytona for points pending being a cup driver.

As said before, no driver has ever intentionally skipped a race while being a champion, or considered for a championship. Brad K finished out the 2010 Nationwide season with a 67,935,735 point lead. If there was ever a time to take a race off, that'd be it, but he didn't because he's a racer. Racers don't sit out like stick & ball sports players might.

However, the solution to that is skip the Daytona 500. Skip the 500, and you're a P/T Cup driver who has never be ineligible to score drivers points in other Nascar series. If you think you can win the Cup championship as a P/T driver, like Kevin Harvick in 2001, you're welcome to try.

One thing I'd add to Matt's system is that the first 5 races are exempt from the stipulation. The reason I say this is exactly the example above. Regan Smith doesn't want to take the weekends off so he aligns himself with a nationwide team. He plans to run the entire Nationwide schedule and run for a championship, but he can't because the first race would be non points race based upon his current standing.

That thought actually occured to me. I wrestled with it for a few hours.

The conclusion I came to is, if you don't intend on racing the full Cup Series but you are racing for the championship in other series, what are you doing racing in the Daytona 500? Leave the Daytona 500 for the true Cup Series drivers and teams. It's too prestigious to be any sort of training ground. Enter one of the other three restrictor plate races if you need plate training.

But if you insist, the cost will be your eligibility to score drivers points in the first 1-2 weekends of non-Cup races. (2 because the F/T status will not change under after completion of Lap 1 of the next Cup race after Daytona.) Race in the Daytona 500, or score points in the first 1-2 races of the series you're really trying to be the champion of. Make the choice. If you're going to box someone else out of the Daytona 500 because you need training, it's a fair trade off, especially when there are 3 other Cup plate races in any given year.

Let cup rookies run one season as a dual series contender. A rookie isn't going to come in and beat Jimmie Johnson so there's no fear of winning the championship in both series. The rookie needs all the track time possible.

As described above, the rookie can skip the Daytona 500 and be fine for the rest of the season. I'm totally ok with that. The Daytona 500 is the Super Bowl of Stock Car Racing. Has the rookie driver moved up to Cup from Nationwide/Trucks, or not? If not, at least leave the room on the Daytona 500's starting grid for a driver/team that has.

Remember, the whole goal here is to protect the integrity of the Nationwide/Truck Series drivers championship. Nascar is looking to ensure that the true drivers champion of those series is the one that holds the trophy each year. If my system was in place, Justin Allgaier would be the Nationwide champion rather than Brad K, and probably wouldn't have had to leave Penske because the presteige and noterity of being the N'wide Champion likely would have garnered him enough sponsorship to stay with Penske. That's what's important here. These good up and coming drivers need as much publicity as possible, and having Cup drivers win their series' championship hurts that and them.

So, if you're a Nationwide or Truck driver running a limited Cup schedule, great. Race in your series' Daytona race. Watch the Daytona 500 on TV, take notes, then make your first plate race at Talladega, if you can qualify. If you're a F/T Cup driver who wants to run Nationwide/Trucks, great. You won't get drivers' points in those series, but maybe you can earn an owners' championship for your team. If you DNQ for a Cup race, then you weren't the championship contender that you thought you were. Feel free to start scoring drivers points in Nationwide/Trucks next week. It's fair, equitable, and accomplishes the goal of protecting the integrity of the Nationwide/Truck Series' drivers championship.

It's simple. No F/T Cup Series driver is eligible to earn drivers' points in any other Nascar series.

 

[Chevy14Man]

I like the thought of no points for the Cup guys in Nationwide, with one exception: I say you let NSCS guys who want to drop back and get that Nationwide title so that they can have it on their resume (Kyle Busch, Carl Edwards, an Brad Keslowski are all guilty here) be allowed to do so. Make the rule so that Cup drivers running in Nationwide must have the intention of running the full season to score points, so that those "resume polishers" can get their wish. Sure, you'll still have some years where Cup guys dominate. But it should weed out the points standings enough so that we start to see Nationwide drivers winning their own championship.

 

[MillsLayne]

I like the thought of no points for the Cup guys in Nationwide, with one exception: I say you let NSCS guys who want to drop back and get that Nationwide title so that they can have it on their resume (Kyle Busch, Carl Edwards, an Brad Keslowski are all guilty here) be allowed to do so. Make the rule so that Cup drivers running in Nationwide must have the intention of running the full season to score points, so that those "resume polishers" can get their wish. Sure, you'll still have some years where Cup guys dominate. But it should weed out the points standings enough so that we start to see Nationwide drivers winning their own championship.

But that won't change anything. We haven't had a Nationwide-only driver win the championship since Truex in '05. They wouldn't just dominate some years, they would dominate every year like they have been. Carl Edwards drives full time every single year and plans to do so again in 2011.

 

[Markfan]

But that won't change anything. We haven't had a Nationwide-only driver win the championship since Truex in '05. They wouldn't just dominate some years, they would dominate every year like they have been. Carl Edwards drives full time every single year and plans to do so again in 2011.

True. In the past twenty years:

1991: Bobby LaBonte (Moved up in 1993, two years later)
1992: Joe Nemechek (Moved up in 1994, two years later)
1993: Steve Grissom (Moved up in 1994)
1994: David Green (Moved up in 1997, three years later)
1995: Johnny Benson (Moved up in 1996)
1996: Randy LaJoie
1997: Randy LaJoie (DIDN'T move up to a full-time ride, but did do 1995 and 1998 part-time)
1998: Dale Earnhardt Jr.
1999: Dale Earnhardt Jr. (Moved up in 2000)
2000: Jeff Green (Moved up in 2002, two years later)
2001: Kevin Harvick (He was originally going to be a Busch-only driver until . . . well, you know . . . )
2002: Greg Biffle (Moved up in 2003)
2003: Brian Vickers (Moved up in 2004)
2004: Martin Truex Jr.
2005: Martin Truex Jr. (Moved up in 2006)
2006: Kevin Harvick
2007: Carl Edwards
2008: Clint Bowyer
2009: Kyle Busch
2010: Brad Keselowski

Only 6 season championships were won by active Cup regulars . . . all but one of which are the last five consecutive seasons.

In fact, it's gotten pretty bad with the Buschwhackers lately from a win-count standpoint too, compare 2000-2005 with 2006-2010:


2000
1. Jeff Green
2. Jason Keller
3. Kevin Harvick
4. Todd Bodine
5. Ron Hornaday
6. Elton Sawyer
7. Randy LaJoie
8. Casey Atwood
9. David Green
10. Jimmie Johnson

Winners:
Jeff Green
Jason Keller
Kevin Harvick
Todd Bodine
Ron Hornaday
Randy LaJoie
Matt Kenseth
Tim Fedewa
Mark Martin
Jeff Burton
Joe Nemechek
Jeff Gordon
Sterling Marlin
Ron Fellows

Busch Driver Wins: Fifteen

2001
1. Kevin Harvick
2. Jeff Green
3. Jason Keller
4. Greg Biffle
5. Elton Sawyer
6. Tony Raines
7. Mike McLaughlin
8. Jimmie Johnson
9. Chad Little (his last full-time cup ride was in 2000)
10. Kenny Wallace (See info below)

Winners:
Kevin Harvick
Jeff Green
Jason Keller
Greg Biffle
Mike McLaughlin
Jimmie Johnson (his only Busch win)
Kenny Wallace
Randy LaJoie
Hank Parker Jr.
Matt Kenseth
Jeff Purvis
Jimmy Spencer
Ryan Newman
Todd Bodine
Jeff Burton
Joe Nemechek

Busch Driver Wins: Nineteen (Twenty-Four if you include Harvick, who wasn't originally planned to be a cup driver yet.)

2002
1. Greg Biffle
2. Jason Keller
3. Scott Wimmer
4. Mike McLaughlin
5. Jack Sprague
6. Jamie McMurray
7. Kenny Wallace (he went back to the Busch series full-time in 2001 and returned to cup full time in 2003.)
8. Bobby Hamilton Jr.
9. Stacy Compton
10. Scott Riggs

Winners:
Greg Biffle
Jason Keller
Scott Wimmer
Jack Sprague
Jamie McMurray
Bobby Hamilton Jr.
Scott Riggs
Hank Parker Jr.
Johnny Sauter
Jeff Green
Todd Bodine
Jimmy Spencer
Michael Waltrip
Jeff Burton
Joe Nemechek
Jeff Purvis

Busch Driver Wins: Twenty-five

2003
1. Brian Vickers
2. David Green
3. Ron Hornaday
4. Bobby Hamilton Jr.
5. Jason Keller
6. Scott Riggs
7. Kasey Kahne
8. Johnny Sauter
9. Scott Wimmer
10. Mike Bliss

Winners:
Brian Vickers
David Green
Ron Hornaday
Bobby Hamilton Jr.
Jason Keller
Scott Riggs
Kasey Kahne
Johnny Sauter
Scott Wimmer
Kevin Harvick
Todd Bodine
Michael Waltrip
Jamie McMurray
Matt Kenseth
Joe Nemechek
Greg Biffle
Dale Earnhardt Jr. (random note, he won all three races he entered in during this year. lol)

Busch Driver Wins: Seventeen

---

2004
1. Martin Truex Jr.
2. Kyle Busch
3. Greg Biffle
4. Ron Hornaday
5. Mike Bliss
6. Jason Keller
7. David Green
8. Ashton Lewis
9. Kenny Wallace
10. David Stremme

Winners:
Martin Truex Jr.
Kyle Busch
Greg Biffle
Ron Hornaday
Mike Bliss
Jason Leffler
Michael Waltrip
Mike Wallace
Kevin Harvick
Robby Gordon
Matt Kenseth
Joe Nemechek
Jamie McMurray
Justin LaBonte
Dale Earnhardt Jr.

Busch Driver Wins: Fifteen

2005
1. Martin Truex Jr.
2. Clint Bowyer
3. Carl Edwards
4. Reed Sorenson
5. Denny Hamlin
6. Paul Menard
7. Kenny Wallace
8. David Green
9. Jason Keller
10. Greg Biffle

Winners:
Martin Truex Jr.
Clint Bowyer
Carl Edwards
Reed Sorenson
David Green
Greg Biffle
Johnny Sauter
Kevin Harvick
Kasey Kahne
Matt Kenseth
Ryan Newman
Tony Stewart
Mark Martin
Kyle Busch

Busch Driver Wins: Twelve

------------- (The Total Buschwhacking years) ---------------

2006:
1. Kevin Harvick
2. Carl Edwards
3. Clint Bowyer
4. Denny Hamlin
5. J.J. Yeley
6. Paul Menard
7. Kyle Busch
8. Johnny Sauter
9. Greg Biffle
10. Reed Sorenson

Winners:
Kevin Harvick
Carl Edwards
Clint Bowyer
Denny Hamlin
Paul Menard
Kyle Busch
Greg Biffle
Matt Kenseth
Jeff Burton
Kasey Kahne
Tony Stewart
Casey Mears
Dave Blaney
Martin Truex Jr.
Dale Earnhardt Jr.
David Gilliland

Busch Driver Wins: Two, one of which was by a driver that only competed in a quarter of the season.

2007:
1. Carl Edwards
2. David Reutimann
3. Jason Leffler
4. Kevin Harvick
5. David Ragan
6. Bobby Hamilton Jr.
7. Stephen Leicht
8. Marcos Ambrose
9. Greg Biffle
10. Matt Kenseth

Winners:
Carl Edwards
David Reutimann
Jason Leffler
Kevin Harvick
Stephen Leicht
Matt Kenseth
Clint Bowyer
Denny Hamlin
Jeff Burton
Kyle Busch
Kasey Kahne
Bobby LaBonte
Aric Amirola* (Technically, Hamlin won because he switched IN to Aric's car at lap 59)
Reed Sorenson
Juan Pablo Montoya

Busch Driver wins: Three, one of which was the aforementioned Denny/Aric win.


2008:
1. Clint Bowyer
2. Carl Edwards
3. Brad Keselowski
4. David Ragan
5. Mike Bliss
6. Kyle Busch
7. David Reutimann
8. Mike Wallace
9. Jason Leffler
10. Marcos Ambrose

Winners:
Clint Bowyer
Carl Edwards
Brad Keselowski
Kyle Busch
Marcos Ambrose
Scott Wimmer
Denny Hamlin
Joey Logano
Matt Kenseth
Mark Martin
Ron Fellows

Nationwide Driver wins: Four

2009:
1. Kyle Busch
2. Carl Edwards
3. Brad Keselowski
4. Jason Leffler
5. Mike Bliss
6. Justin Allgaier
7. Steve Wallace
8. Jason Keller
9. Brendan Gaughan
10. Michael Annett

Winners:
Kyle Busch
Carl Edwards
Brad Keselowski
Mike Bliss
Joey Logano
Kevin Harvick
David Ragan
Matt Kenseth
Greg Biffle
Clint Bowyer
Tony Stewart
Marcos Ambrose

Nationwide Driver Wins: Five

2010:
1. Brad Keselowski
2. Carl Edwards
3. Kyle Busch
4. Justin Allgaier
5. Paul Menard
6. Kevin Harvick
7. Trevor Bayne
8. Joey Logano
9. Jason Leffler
10. Steve Wallace

Winners:
Brad Keselowski
Carl Edwards
Kyle Busch
Justin Allgaier
Kevin Harvick
Joey Logano
Jamie McMurray
Denny Hamlin
Dale Earnhardt. Jr
Boris Said
Marcos Ambrose
Tony Stewart

Nationwide Driver wins: one . . . . .

Nationwide drivers are in bold.


While I don't agree that disallowing points/racing is the best call, I don't know what really could be a better solution, to be honest, UNLESS completely shuffling the race schedule [from what it is now] counts.

 

[celticfang]

There'll come a point where Nationwide drivers will give up (I think), there's experience, then there's being beaten every week day in, day out.

Should the NFL players play four more years in college, as an analogy? Should MLB stars play for minor league clubs? IMHO. No.

I can see N'wide tailing off in the future if Cup guys win all the races