[Please delete]

[LoarC500]

[Please delete post]

 

[4WideRacing]

Maybe something should happen but it's also good for the cup stars to be racing in the Nationwide series. It's good for the series,the tracks, Nationwide drivers, cup drivers, and a lot of fans.

 

[KG_24]

There are three opinions about limiting Cup drivers in Nationwide:
-Limiting the # of races they can be in (would drive away sponsors from teams like JGR and Penske, also lower ticket sales)
-Letting drivers race, but in lower equipment (does not guarantee that cup drivers won't win, may limit race domination)
-Just eliminating Cup drivers entirely (again, would drive away sponsors and ticket sales, probably won't happen)

Honestly I would go with the second option. The first option is probably the best, but I think cup drivers need to stay in Nationwide. They have a right to race, and we can't take that away because "they win too much". Of course they win too much, they are pros and have been racing in the series for a long time, so yes they would have an advantage. They should race in lower equipment, but it won't limit them winning 100% (I swear Kyle would have won at least 2 or 3 times in 2012 so it isn't that big of a difference) so it isn't a certainty.

 

[LoarC500]

[Please delete post]

 

[Harry Nurpplez]

Just have them start in the back in thier own cars.

 

[4WideRacing]

Just have them start in the back in thier own cars.

How would Nascar regulate who's car it really is? And starting in the back... that would only be if they made the drivers' meeting at the same time as cup practise or something. Making a rule where the cup drivers would have to start at the rear would just kill.

 

[Harry Nurpplez]

How would Nascar regulate who's car it really is?

Kyle, Brad and Harvick have/had thier own shops. We know they build/built their own cars/trucks aswell and thats the part that counts.

And starting in the back... that would only be if they made the drivers' meeting at the same time as cup practise or something.

Exactly, which is what I preposed before. Simply move it up and force a technicallity.

Making a rule where the cup drivers would have to start at the rear would just kill.

Kill What? How many times has Kyle and Carl and the other cup regulars over the past ten years have won from dead last? Many times. Denny didn't even start a race and still won. We already know that this is what the majority(that counts, specifically the tv audience for obvious reasons) would want to see. It would only add some positive drama to the race. Thats how you make a NWS race fun. The regular drivers would no doubt find it more fun as well. The regulars have to have the upperhand somehow. Best option right there.

 

[celticfang]

Differentiate the schedules and get away from all three series being at every track each week. It used to happen ten years or so ago, I remember in 2002 they were talking about the Trucks and Busch being at different events when Cup was at the Glen.

So for instance, Cup at Bristol, NWide at Mid Ohio, Trucks at...say.....ACS instead of all three being at the same facility.

That way, they couldn't just go from one to the other to the other.

 

[4WideRacing]

Kyle, Brad and Harvick have/had thier own shops. We know they build/built their own cars/trucks aswell and thats the part that counts.

Yeah, but it's still hard to regulate the technicalities.

Exactly, which is what I preposed before. Simply move it up and force a technicallity.

And what I proposed before that.

Kill What? How many times has Kyle and Carl and the other cup regulars over the past ten years have won from dead last? Many times. Denny didn't even start a race and still won. We already know that this is what the majority(that counts, specifically the tv audience for obvious reasons) would want to see. It would only add some positive drama to the race. Thats how you make a NWS race fun. The regular drivers would no doubt find it more fun as well. The regulars have to have the upperhand somehow. Best option right there.

Kill a lot. If Nascar made a rule mandating that certain drivers had to start in the back to make the racing more fair or exciting where would it end? That's not a good path to go down. A lot, but it still doesn't make it make sense for Nascar to mandate. Denny didn't win, he just crossed the line first. How do we know the majority "who count" want it? And who are the ones that don't count? :-/ Would the regular drivers find it more fun to have an unfair advantage? Look I beat Kyle Busch, but maybe it was because of the rule Nascar made that had him start at the back. I'm sure most racers want to win "real races" not shortened races or ones with gimmicks to help them win. They want to say they out raced the best and came up top on a as level as can be playing field. I don't know if they need the upper hand.

Differentiate the schedules and get away from all three series being at every track each week. It used to happen ten years or so ago, I remember in 2002 they were talking about the Trucks and Busch being at different events when Cup was at the Glen.

So for instance, Cup at Bristol, NWide at Mid Ohio, Trucks at...say.....ACS instead of all three being at the same facility.

That way, they couldn't just go from one to the other to the other.

That may work some but the TV networks would hate it.

 

[Tarkus]

Here's a better idea. Make a rule change such that when a Nationwide team or Truck team fields an entry using a Cup series driver, they do not accrue owner's points for that entry.

A large part of the reason why we're seeing Kyle, Brad, and Joey constantly make a mockery of the Nationwide series in the #54 and #22 is because JGR and Penske are going after an "owner's championship", a seemingly meaningless award (albeit one that pays money) that no one even gave a second thought toward until Childress decided to go for one in 2003, running Harvick and Johnny Sauter in the #21 Payday car.

The "declare a series" provision that was implemented two seasons ago eliminated the possibility of a team fielding a Cup driver going for a championship in Nationwide, and this curtailed the absurdity for a little while, but when a team puts a Cup driver in a Nationwide car, they still get the owner's points, and can still go after this owner's championship, which is why you're seeing JGR and Penske invest heavily in the #54 and #22, respectively. Right now, in the owner's championship, the #22 has a 16-point lead on the #54, and a 108-point lead on the #12, a team that actually has a Nationwide Series driver (Hornish).

It's worth noting that the monetary award for winning the championship actually gets split in half when a team other than that of the driver's champion wins the owner's championship. Last year, Stenhouse won the driver's championship, but the Roush #6 was only 2nd in the owner's points, behind the JGR #18 in which Logano won 7 races (his other 2 wins were in the #20). As a result, Stenhouse and Roush actually got robbed of end-of-year purse money.

With no financial incentive from NASCAR to invest so heavily in Nationwide cars for Cup drivers, you'd likely see the Cup drivers in fewer races, and probably in less dominant cars.

 

[MattSRD28]

The Nationwide Series should have the best cars and drivers possible.

This inference that Cup drivers are "ruining" the races is just silly. The up & coming drivers learn so much when the Cup guys are racing with them. We all want young drivers to succeed as soon as they start Cup racing or they're judged harshly. Well how are they going to quickly succeed? By racing against their Cup competition before they get to that series.

 

[The Captain]

 

[Devin41]

On the lines of making the Cup drivers start at the back of lower series races, I say why not? I'm all for that...what do you think most local tracks do? They put the faster cars in towards the back and it usually ends up with lots of passing and great racing.

 

[Henderson]

Why do people even talk about this anymore? Honestly, Cup guys have been allowed in Nationwide and Trucks since the beginning of NASCAR's multiple series. It is what it is and won't change. I would be more worried about the chase or the current rules NASCAR has, not just the damn series' and who drives in it.

 

[4WideRacing]

Why do people even talk about this anymore? Honestly, Cup guys have been allowed in Nationwide and Trucks since the beginning of NASCAR's multiple series. It is what it is and won't change. I would be more worried about the chase or the current rules NASCAR has, not just the damn series' and who drives in it.

Because they hate Kyle Busch? That's the only reason I can see.

 

[MattSRD28]

On the lines of making the Cup drivers start at the back of lower series races, I say why not? I'm all for that...what do you think most local tracks do? They put the faster cars in towards the back and it usually ends up with lots of passing and great racing.

This happens if/when a Cup driver needs someone to practice/qualify the car because Nationwide & Sprint Cup are apart from each other on a given weekend. The Cup driver starts the race in the back. It doesn't really change anything about the race itself.


Also, folks, try to remember that guys like Dale Earnhardt, Harry Gant, Davey Allison, Jimmy Spencer, Michael Waltrip, Terry Labonte, Mark Martin, Darrell Waltrip, Ken Schrader, Ernie Irvan, Dale Jarrett, Hut Stricklin, Morgan Shepherd, Sterling Marlin and others would all run Busch/Nationwide Series races on a quasi-regular basis despite being well-established Cup Series drivers. That didn't seem to harm the careers of guys like Jeff Gordon, Jeff Burton, Bobby Labonte, Kenny Wallace, or anyone else.

 

[Tarkus]

Why do people even talk about this anymore? Honestly, Cup guys have been allowed in Nationwide and Trucks since the beginning of NASCAR's multiple series. It is what it is and won't change. I would be more worried about the chase or the current rules NASCAR has, not just the damn series' and who drives in it.

From my perspective, I don't have a problem with Cup drivers occasionally running lower division races. What I have a problem with is Cup teams fielding vastly superior Nationwide cars for their Cup drivers, using their Cup pit crews, and running for the silly owner's championship.

Also, folks, try to remember that guys like Dale Earnhardt, Harry Gant, Davey Allison, Jimmy Spencer, Michael Waltrip, Terry Labonte, Mark Martin, Darrell Waltrip, Ken Schrader, Ernie Irvan, Dale Jarrett, Hut Stricklin, Morgan Shepherd, Sterling Marlin and others would all run Busch/Nationwide Series races on a quasi-regular basis despite being well-established Cup Series drivers. That didn't seem to harm the careers of guys like Jeff Gordon, Jeff Burton, Bobby Labonte, Kenny Wallace, or anyone else.

Back then, there was a healthier balance. Those guys ran about half the season at most, usually in their own equipment or driving for a (then) BGN-only team. And the ones who did particularly well in their partial seasons--e.g. Harry Gant in '91 (5 wins) and Mark Martin in '97 (6 wins)--usually wound up finishing outside the top-20 in points. The majority of races were still won by BGN regulars.

Here's the situation now: out of the 23 races thus far in the Nationwide series, only 4 (approx. 17%) have been won by series regulars. 17 of 23 have been won by full-time Cup drivers. (The other 2 of 23 were won by Allmendinger, who is not a Nationwide regular, but only part-time in Cup.)

Kyle Busch runs a JGR Nationwide car for two-thirds of the season. On average, every other race he runs, he wins. If he were eligible for driver's points in that series, he'd be 10th right now (707 points), despite skipping 6 races.

There's a fair case to be made for developing drivers in lower series learning by racing Cup drivers. But how does getting creamed by Cup drivers in vastly superior equipment every week help developing drivers learn? If you go back to 2010, 6 of the top-10 in Nationwide points were full-time Cup drivers at the time, and they're there despite the fact that most of them skipped several races. And only one Nationwide regular (Allgaier) had a win that season--did getting that one win against the stacked field of Cup drivers help him develop or attract the eye of a Cup owner? (Rumors of Finch's sale of the #51 to Harry Scott not withstanding.)

 

[MattSRD28]

There's a fair case to be made for developing drivers in lower series learning by racing Cup drivers. But how does getting creamed by Cup drivers in vastly superior equipment every week help developing drivers learn? If you go back to 2010, 6 of the top-10 in Nationwide points were full-time Cup drivers at the time, and they're there despite the fact that most of them skipped several races. And only one Nationwide regular (Allgaier) had a win that season--did getting that one win against the stacked field of Cup drivers help him develop or attract the eye of a Cup owner? (Rumors of Finch's sale of the #51 to Harry Scott not withstanding.)

Getting "creamed" by Cup drivers helps in a few ways. Firstly, that "vastly superior equipment" the Cup guys can be in, namely the upper echelon of teams, provides the same sort of learning curve for other teams and other team owners that the Cup drivers provide for the other drivers. Other teams can watch and learn being side by side on pit road, and in the same garage, with the big boys. Having Cup owners running Nationwide and Truck teams also provides for greater employment both at the track & at the shop, and increases the quality of racing in Nationwide and Truck Series. We've seen Cup teams promote from within up from their Nationwide/Truck teams - Paul Wolfe immediately comes to mind. This benefits the Cup Series team-wise in addition to providing a platform for younger up & coming engineers, car chiefs, pit crew guys, and every other position on any given team.

Let's face it, the best drivers in Nascar are already in the Cup Series. Unless you can point to someone not in Cup seat and claim without question & without doubt that that someone can win the Sprint Cup next year despite not currently having a Cup rides, the best drivers are Cup drivers. So if you agree that there is a benefit to having Cup drivers in Nationwide/Truck races, that must come with the expectation that those Cup drivers would win the majority of races that they enter. Their competition that doesn't join the Cup guys in the Cup races watch, learn, improve, and move up themselves eventually. It doesn't matter if non-Cup guys don't win most of the time. Far more is learned from failure than from success.

You cite Justin Allgaier as example of how non-Cup driver isn't benefitting because of how long Justin's run Nationwide. For every Justin Allgaier, I'll cite a Joey Logano. For every Johnny Benson, there's a Martin Truex Jr. For every Randy LaJoie, there's a Jimmie Johnson. Just because guys succeed in Nationwide, there's no guarantee they'll succeed in Cup. Also, the reality is that while non-Cup drivers will benefit from racing Cup guys in non-Cup races, not every single driver who makes it into Nationwide will make it into the Cup Series. Some will fall short, and that's not the fault of the Cup guys taking away success. If anything, for those drivers who never make it out of the Nationwide/Trucks and into Cup, Cup guys' in Nationwide/Truck help prove who can & can't cut it in Cup before the team/sponsor make a bad investment of time/resources into that driver. This is also a benefit to the Cup Series, its teams, and the driver who was spared a failed foray into the Cup Series.

Cup team owners who are looking into the Nationwide/Truck Series for their next successful driver aren't just looking at wins, or points standing outcomes, or that kind of thing. There's no sabermetrics in Nascar. Team owners are looking for how a driver races, how he communicates with his team, how he conducts himself on & off the track, and then maybe the raw performance stats are looked at. All of those things can be very well demonstrated by non-Cup drivers even if Kyle Busch is dominating whatever non-Cup race that he's in.

Lastly, having Cup drivers in Nationwide/Truck Series provides the value in the tickets fans buy for those races. The fans want to see those Cup guys in those races. They aren't going to put up the dough for another race's worth of tickets, another night in the hotel, so on & so on if the biggest draw is Sam Hornish or Elliott Sadler. They just won't, especially in this economy. Fans won't want to put up the money, and neither will sponsors. Cup guys have always been an enormous boost to Truck/Nationwide Series in those regards. You take that away, and those series might not be able to recover from the losses that would be incurred.