Sadler to JGR?

[K.Chuck]

I'd take winning Busch series or truck series championships over being middle-field in the cup series, anyday. Besides, that didn't stop drivers like Johnny Benson, Ted Musgrave, Jeff Green, Todd Bodine, Ron Hornaday or Bobby Hamilton from not only being successful, but staying in their lower series purposefully.

I agree I just dont see Elliot being one of those guys and in this era it seems like all the top rides go to young guys. Look at what Ron Hornady is in now. I think even if Elliot goes to JGR he will suffer the same fate he has at RCR. To much young, good talent with bright futures to want to invest in a guy on his way out. I think hes going to get more of a mentoring and supporting role where ever he ends up. One thing is for sure it wont be in a full time Cup car.

 

[TLmac55]

Sadler did get it done in Cup in the #38 car, that was his biggest mistake, leaving that team.
But, how many wins does dillon have in the "same equipment" Sadler is in?
I'll never get some of the logic of some people, and I guess that's what makes us all different.
Sadler gets crapped on in here, but AJ was a hero. I guess I just don't get the younger crowd's thinking.? Oh well.

What about the fact that Sadler has been racing in nascar for 14 years and Austin Dillon has been racing for not even 2. There's a HUGE difference in experience between the two. Thats like comparing apples and oranges

 

[K.Chuck]

Sadler did get it done in Cup in the #38 car, that was his biggest mistake, leaving that team.
But, how many wins does dillon have in the "same equipment" Sadler is in?
I'll never get some of the logic of some people, and I guess that's what makes us all different.
Sadler gets crapped on in here, but AJ was a hero. I guess I just don't get the younger crowd's thinking.? Oh well.

Sadly I am not part of the younger crowd. lol And nether is Sadler, that is his biggest obstacle. We know his potential but we have no idea what the young guns have and the future of the sport lies with them.

 

[TJBartel]

But it doesn't have to. How many young guns don't pan out? Too many. Look at Mark Martin, Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart. Age isn't the be all end all it has been made into.
I just think Elliott is doing the right things to try and jumpstart his career and he's getting kinda crapped on by RCR.
I just hope he gets a good ride, he's a good solid driver that still has talent.
Oh well, good debate none the less.

 

[The Captain]

Look at Mark Martin, Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart. Age isn't the be all end all it has been made into.

Elliott Sadler never has been and never will be Mark Martin, Jeff Gordon or Tony Stewart. Those three are still around in Cup because they won at the top level and did so consistently.

 

[Markfan]

To much young, good talent with bright futures to want to invest in a guy on his way out.

I'm going to be perfectly honest here. Where is all of this young, good talent? We rarely see any non-lopsided (or basically, anything but totally horrible) ROTY battles in either the cup or Nationwide series, while veterans are being replaced by nobodies that aren't doing diddly in the Nationwide series. I mean, look at NEMCO. Joe has struggled to get the team running like it did over a decade ago constantly, yet he is one point out of the top 10 after skipping a race. Heck, 10th through 21st in the Nationwide standings have a whopping 9 top 10s between them, while 22nd hasn't even attempted half of the races.

The truck series only has 18 drivers that have managed to make every race so far, and only five of them are under 25: Ty, James, Dakoda, Ross and Joey. In addition, the only cup driver introduced within the past three seasons (including this one) that has proven to be competitive is Brad Keselowski. It could be said that this age in NASCAR is horribly deficient in new, young talent compared to the past, when rookies were aplenty.

 

[RP Motorsports]

Sadler did get it done in Cup in the #38 car, that was his biggest mistake, leaving that team.
But, how many wins does dillon have in the "same equipment" Sadler is in?
I'll never get some of the logic of some people, and I guess that's what makes us all different.
Sadler gets crapped on in here, but AJ was a hero. I guess I just don't get the younger crowd's thinking.? Oh well.

Sadler did get it done with Yates, but I wouldnt say leaving was his biggest mistake. Or even a mistake at all for that matter. Yates was on the decline and had just gotten to the point where they couldnt keep up anymore with the top teams. Shortly after that, they ended up merging with Hall of Fame Racing (another sub-par team) just to stay afloat. He got out at just the right time.

Problem is, he ended up with Evernham just as that team was starting to fall behind, and subsequently merging with Petty Enterprises. And thats when the whole George Gillette/RPM debacle began. Gillette had no business owning a Cup team, and that team was not in a position to run 3-4 cars. And on top of it, they didnt even want Salder, so you know they wernt doing him any favors. They sunk their resources and focus into Kahne's car, and everyone else was just along for the ride.

I really think Sadler's downfall was mostly just a result of unfortunate circumstances. You can only do so much in sub-par equipment, and it aint much at all.


As far as Dinger goes, I do agree. I've always thought hes been somewhat over-rated (especially here). He's just not that great of a Cup driver. If all the stars align just right, he can put together a good run. Otherwise, he's a top 15-20 driver at best.

 

[Phantomguy24]

I think the issue is not the lack of young talent but the lack of decent, long term rides for the young talent, which is part of the reason I think there are plenty of guys far more deserving of either the RCR seat or the JGR seat than Elliot. In my mind he is merely another cup driver taking rides away from rising young talent, except in his case, he's even trying to take the championship from them. Elliot had his time to shine at Yates, and unfortunately got a bit of a bad deal with Evernham/Petty, but that's just the way it goes. To the point of not many young drivers panning out, I feel like that's a product of there not being enough of a chance for them to. It's seems as though the only rookie recently to pan out in cup is Brad Keselowski. But how many other promising young guns have gotten the full time cup or even the full time nationwide rides they need to pan out? It's simple math that the less you put in, the fewer good results you're going to get. Guys like Ryan Blaney, Ryan Truex, Trevor Bayne, Joey Coulter, Parker Kligerman and Darrell Wallace Jr just to name a few, all look like they could turn into winning machines. Unfortunately they're all at least at this point relegated to extremely short auditions in which they don't really give them a fair shot. And even if half of those four, and half of all the rest were to struggle miserably given the opportunity to perform at the cup level, we'd still have the other half, and we'd have more young drivers achieving success. So I say give Elliot the boot and give his ride to a probably very deserving youngster. At least then we wouldn't have people who probably couldn't compete at the cup level anyway clogging up the system for the guys who might thrive. It's really a risk/reward situation and unfortunately most teams go for the low risk option.

And with all that said, I'm sure Elliot will end up in the 20 and steal a nationwide championship from a well deserving up and comer. But I guess that's just how it works.

 

[TJBartel]

Elliott Sadler never has been and never will be Mark Martin, Jeff Gordon or Tony Stewart. Those three are still around in Cup because they won at the top level and did so consistently.

No, but he's alot better than alot of these "kids". How good would those three named above for example been in the same cup cars ES was in?
I think far too much is placed on these "kids"/ young guns being the future of the sport. But, it is what it has become, I cannot change it.

 

[Phantomguy24]

I think far too much is placed on these "kids"/ young guns being the future of the sport. But, it is what it has become, I cannot change it.

Unfortunately not even Mark Martin can keep racing forever. Unless of course he's managed to find the elixir of life. In which case, forget all of those kids I mentioned before they're completely pointless.

 

[TJBartel]

If Elliott Sadler outdrives these kids in tthe NWS and wins the title over them, how is he not deserving, and how are they moreso? Because they are young? Elliott is hardly "old". As mentioned above, the last "young gun" wonder kid that paned out was BK. There have been alot that just aren't that good. The sponsors sure ike ES, and that is incredibley important in this day and time.
I know they can't drive forever,but it doesn't mean a guy is through once he hits 35 years old.

 

[RP Motorsports]

I think the issue is not the lack of young talent but the lack of decent, long term rides for the young talent, which is part of the reason I think there are plenty of guys far more deserving of either the RCR seat or the JGR seat than Elliot. In my mind he is merely another cup driver taking rides away from rising young talent, except in his case, he's even trying to take the championship from them. Elliot had his time to shine at Yates, and unfortunately got a bit of a bad deal with Evernham/Petty, but that's just the way it goes. To the point of not many young drivers panning out, I feel like that's a product of there not being enough of a chance for them to. It's seems as though the only rookie recently to pan out in cup is Brad Keselowski. But how many other promising young guns have gotten the full time cup or even the full time nationwide rides they need to pan out? It's simple math that the less you put in, the fewer good results you're going to get. Guys like Ryan Blaney, Ryan Truex, Trevor Bayne, Joey Coulter, Parker Kligerman and Darrell Wallace Jr just to name a few, all look like they could turn into winning machines. Unfortunately they're all at least at this point relegated to extremely short auditions in which they don't really give them a fair shot. And even if half of those four, and half of all the rest were to struggle miserably given the opportunity to perform at the cup level, we'd still have the other half, and we'd have more young drivers achieving success. So I say give Elliot the boot and give his ride to a probably very deserving youngster. At least then we wouldn't have people who probably couldn't compete at the cup level anyway clogging up the system for the guys who might thrive. It's really a risk/reward situation and unfortunately most teams go for the low risk option.

And with all that said, I'm sure Elliot will end up in the 20 and steal a nationwide championship from a well deserving up and comer. But I guess that's just how it works.

I agree with a lot of your points here. And I think you're right about young guys not panning out because of a lack of long-term quality rides.

The only issue I have, is what I perceive as your opinion surrounding the idea that young guys should be the priority. Like they should be entitled to open rides before veterans, and decisions should be made based on the younger drivers.

Even though Nationwide/Trucks are viewed as developmental series, they arent SOLELY developmental series, like AHL/ECHL or AAA baseball. Race teams want to win. And its also a business, with a big part of the business being winning. So those teams whose objective it is to win first and foremost, are going to put whoever they feel is the best available driver in their car. Not who they think is the next prospect. And thats their choice.

I guess my main point is, there are some teams whose focus is developing younger drivers, and other teams whose focus is more so on winning as soon as possible. And thats their choice to make. The lower series arent there just for young drivers. And young drivers arent entitled to any open seat that may come along.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[The Captain]

No, but he's alot better than alot of these "kids". How good would those three named above for example been in the same cup cars ES was in?
I think far too much is placed on these "kids"/ young guns being the future of the sport. But, it is what it has become, I cannot change it.

They all would have won more than Sadler. That's not a knock on Sadler, it's simply the truth that he's not as good as the three guys you mentioned. I wouldn't be so harsh on the young people of the sport. The current crop of contenders aren't going to race forever. We'll need them to step in and carry the torch eventually, so why not hope they get the seat time needed to improve and start learning what it takes to win?

 

[K.Chuck]

The sponsors sure ike ES, and that is incredibley important in this day and time.

If this was the case he would have a secure ride and future. I am not bashing the guy but if sponsors like you than your meal ticket is all but paid for. I think the sponsor have liked the programs KHI and RCR put together for them. Dont get me wrong, I wish the guy the best of luck but I don't see him getting a lot farther in his career. Hes a mediocre driver and his experience helps him shine in the Nationwide series but "in my opinion" the top teams want to use it as a developmental series for future cup drivers. So where dose he end up in the long run and where dose he really fit? Realistically?

 

[flatbedtraylor]

RP Motorsports I agree completely, well stated.

 

[Phantomguy24]

I agree with a lot of your points here. And I think you're right about young guys not panning out because of a lack of long-term quality rides.

The only issue I have, is what I perceive as your opinion surrounding the idea that young guys should be the priority. Like they should be entitled to open rides before veterans, and decisions should be made based on the younger drivers.

Even though Nationwide/Trucks are viewed as developmental series, they arent SOLELY developmental series, like AHL/ECHL or AAA baseball. Race teams want to win. And its also a business, with a big part of the business being winning. So those teams whose objective it is to win first and foremost, are going to put whoever they feel is the best available driver in their car. Not who they think is the next prospect. And thats their choice.

I guess my main point is, there are some teams whose focus is developing younger drivers, and other teams whose focus is more so on winning as soon as possible. And thats their choice to make. The lower series arent there just for young drivers. And young drivers arent entitled to any open seat that may come along.

I hope that makes sense.

Yea, I definitely get what you're saying. I didn't mean in my post that any young driver is entitled to a ride over a veteran simply for being young, as I know that's not the case. I also get what you're saying about teams wanting to win, and I get that, even if I don't support the cup drivers that come down and race in the Nationwide series. I personally see Sadler as a special case, and a terrible one at that. We see all the time the cup drivers who have great equipment coming down and beating up on the lower series drivers. However, with Sadler, I feel like he's gaming the system because he didn't quite have the talent or the ride to run successfully in cup, and he took the easy way out and ran the Nationwide series for points. There's a reason Nascar changed the rules to allow drivers to only run for points in one series, and it was to allow the younger up and coming drivers an opportunity to win a bigger title that would otherwise be occupied by the Buschwackers. So a washed up cup driver dropping down and gaming the system doesn't really sit well with me.

 

[MattSRD28]

So a washed up cup driver dropping down and gaming the system doesn't really sit well with me.

Yeah because it's terrible for the series when guys who don't really succeed at first spend more time in the developmental ranks, do things like develop and gain a larger fan base in the process, then come back stronger, more successful, and with a fan base that will buy tickets to the race to see him. Terrible. We need more rules against that sort of thing.

The whole thing about how it's better for younger drivers when Cup drivers race with them because they can see the real competition and learn all sorts of everything from being on the track with them, even though that's been around for the past 3-4 decades, it's all just an old wives' tale that's completely false. It's all about gaming the system and holding down the younger guys.

Sorry, but you're lacking in some historical perspective that's clouding your opinions here. If you watched the Busch Series in the 1990s, before the Cup drivers ever thought of racing full-time, I think you'd hold a less negative opinion of Cup drivers racing in Nationwide and Truck Series today. Then, it was an occasional thing. Yes, Cup drivers would still win Busch Series races. Everyone DREADED Mark Martin's entry because he would routinely dominate in that #60 Winn-Dixie Ford of his. But, it was only an occasional thing, and the main spotlight was still squarely fixated on the Busch regulars like Bobby Labonte, Joe Nemecheck, David Green, Johnny Benson, Randy LaJoie, and later on Matt Kenseth, Dale Jr., Martin Truex, etc. That was when the Busch Series and the Cup Series had the best relationship. Cup drivers would race occasionally. Younger drivers would learn from them and be better for it. Then when they made it to Cup full time, it wasn't such a severe transition.

It changed when Dale Sr. died and Kevin Harvick decided to run both series and showed a driver could potentially win both series championships in one year. Then Harvick did it, Biffle did it, Carl Edwards did it, and Nascar had to come up with the one series points rule because it wasn't an occasional thing anymore and needed to be. When the drivers wouldn't race occasionally voluntarily, Nascar needed to de-incentivize running Nationwide full time. Hopefully this will bring back that good relationship seen in the 1990s, but Nationwide has to grow a crop of younger drivers first and that's still a couple years away from full fermentation. You can see the beginnings of it though. Ricky Stenhouse's success is exactly the right outcome. Young drivers like Trevor Bayne, Ryan Truex, Ryan Blaney, Darrell Wallace, Austin Dillon are the future and it's good that they have their spotlight back.

Elliott Sadler's racing doesn't take away from that at all. Guys like him help the younger drivers while helping themselves in the process. It's a win-win for everybody. Same as it was way back in the day when guys like Kenny Wallace returned to Nationwide to help their careers (talking about when Kenny went back to race the #8 Red Dog car, not the #09). Kenny still never was a Cup champion, but look what he was able to do for himself and the sport. Is that not a better outcome than just kicking someone clear out of Nascar because they don't blow everyone's doors off in their first few years?

 

[K.Chuck]

Yeah because it's terrible for the series when guys who don't really succeed at first spend more time in the developmental ranks, do things like develop and gain a larger fan base in the process, then come back stronger, more successful, and with a fan base that will buy tickets to the race to see him. Terrible. We need more rules against that sort of thing.

This is probably the most valid argument in this entire thread. I never really thought of it this way.

 

[TJBartel]

These young guys are in some cases but not all the future of the sport, but so are drivers like ES, Bobby Labonte and other veterans that teach these young guys and run good clean races in the meantime. These young guys don't "deserve" any ride, they need to EARN it. This entitled menatality is bs. The ones that do truely earn their way are the ones that make it. It is what shapes them and builds charecter.
The goal of a raceteam is to win races, championships and secure/keep sponsors. Any driver that accomplishes that regardless of age deserves their ride.

 

[Markfan]

I personally see Sadler as a special case, and a terrible one at that.

It's not really as special of a case as you imply. Jeff Green went from cup driver for two seasons (1997 and 1998) to Busch series champion in 2000. Just like Elliott, he placed 2nd in the points the season after stepping down from cup, and was poised to win the championship the year after. Kenny Wallace, Morgan Shepherd, Mike Bliss, Sam Hornish Jr., Joe Nemechek, Kevin LePage and Mike Wallace have all stepped down from full-time cup careers to be active Nationwide regulars, and if I attempted to make a list of all the drivers that stepped downward from cup to Busch, I would probably exceed the post letter limit.

The truck series is even more notable for this. Before Austin Dillon won in 2011, the last truck champion not to previously be a full-time cup driver was Travis Kvapil in 2003.

with Sadler, I feel like he's gaming the system because he didn't quite have the talent or the ride to run successfully in cup, and he took the easy way out and ran the Nationwide series for points.

Even before cup drivers won every championship post-2005, this wasn't a new practice of any sort. Like I mentioned, Jeff Green stepped down to win the 2000 championship, but there were several others that did this, too. Tommy Ellis (1988 champion, last ran cup full-time in 1986), Chuck Bown (periodic cup racer since 1972 [age 18], won the 1990 championship at the age of 36), Randy LaJoie (ran 27 races in the cup series, including 14 in 1995, then won both the 1996 and 1997 Busch series championships) all did pretty much what Elliott is doing.

There's a reason Nascar changed the rules to allow drivers to only run for points in one series, and it was to allow the younger up and coming drivers an opportunity to win a bigger title that would otherwise be occupied by the Buschwackers.

Actually, it was because cup drivers were abusing their privilege to be in the 2nd tier series and ruining the championships in their favor. It had nothing to do with age and everything to do with drivers attempting two separate championships and turning off viewership. The change they made was still terribly executed though, because Carl Edwards completely outmatched Ricky Stenhouse Jr. and got nothing to show for it points-wise, which makes the championship system questionable at best.