The Chase Is Not Needed.

[3fan]

The Chase was never needed. With the Chase it determines a champion for really a 10-race season. NASCAR Greats, such as Earnhardt, Petty, and Yarborough EARNED their championships. NASCAR doesn't need 10 races to determine a champion. It needs all of them.
The Chase is nonsense and it only generates ratings not good, hard American racing.

AMEN!!! Preach it brother!!!!!

 

[Markfan]

No matter the points system, JJ would dominate under it right now.

Also, JJ's luck is amazing (which you need in order to win championships)...the dude ought to go raid Vegas right now.

(Old points, no chase, includes last Winston Cup season without chase)

2003:

1st Matt Kenseth 5022 points
2nd Jimmie Johnson -90 points
3rd Dale Earnhardt Jr. -207 points

2004:

1st Jeff Gordon 5017 points
2nd Jimmie Johnson -62
3rd Dale Earnhardt Jr. -178

2005:

1st Tony Stewart 5174 points
2nd Greg Biffle -220
3rd Jimmie Johnson -423

2006:

1st Matt Kenseth 5134 points
2nd Jimmie Johnson -1
3rd Kevin Harvick -325

2007:

1st Jeff Gordon 5395 points
2nd Jimmie Johnson -393
3rd Tony Stewart -676

2008:
1st Carl Edwards 5346 points
2nd Jimmie Johnson -196
3rd Kyle Busch -442

2009:
1st Jimmie Johnson 5086 points
2nd Jeff Gordon -6 points
3rd Tony Stewart -41 points


2004: Jimmie was pretty much clinched out
2005: No contest to the #20
2006: Both the #17 and #48 were driving hard at the end, both were in the top 10, could have gone either way easily.
2007: No contest to the #24
2008: If that bs penalty that shouldn't have existed is excluded, no contest to the #99, if it is included, Jimmie would have won marginally by 4 points, and Jack Roush's statement on how he'd feel if he'd lose due to that penalty would become true.
2009: Jimmie won in only the last race, would have been an interesting controversy since Tony would have been wrecked by Juan Monterry Jack*** in the final race, costing him the championship (he would have been at least in the top5 with the car he had, rather than an outside top-20 finish), and the outcome would be decided by the two teammates that were battling for 4th-through-6th.

So either way Jimmie would have only won his championships barely, and he sure as hell wouldn't have four-in-a-row. Jeff Gordon has been screwed more than his fair share, and the chase just butchers the series, being the only thing worse to competition than the COT in NASCAR, imo. If you like the chase fine by me, but I simply can not.

Also this is totally different from the playoffs, if the playoffs didn't exist than no one would come to a ONE-on-ONE game where one side is already clinched, including the players, NASCAR has more than two racers on the track at the same time, so the MLB playoffs have far more need than the chase.

 

[MattSRD28]

*sigh*

Yeah, the Chase is a 10 race season...

The NBA playoffs is a 16-28 game season...

The MLB playoffs is a 11-19 game season...

The NFL playoffs is a 3-4 game season...

The list goes on, and it's a completely pointless argument. The Chase is here. The Chase has already done worlds of good for the sport. Any champion from 2004-2009 is just as much a champion as 2003 & earlier.

The Chase is not going anywhere, and it's hardly a Jimmie Johnson conspiracy fest. Ask Kurt Busch & Tony Stewart how much the Chase is really a conspiracy to help Jimmie Johnson.

 

[Shift]

(Old points, no chase, includes last Winston Cup season without chase)

2003:

1st Matt Kenseth 5022 points
2nd Jimmie Johnson -90 points
3rd Dale Earnhardt Jr. -207 points

2004:

1st Jeff Gordon 5017 points
2nd Jimmie Johnson -62
3rd Dale Earnhardt Jr. -178

2005:

1st Tony Stewart 5174 points
2nd Greg Biffle -220
3rd Jimmie Johnson -423

2006:

1st Matt Kenseth 5134 points
2nd Jimmie Johnson -1
3rd Kevin Harvick -325

2007:

1st Jeff Gordon 5395 points
2nd Jimmie Johnson -393
3rd Tony Stewart -676

2008:
1st Carl Edwards 5346 points
2nd Jimmie Johnson -196
3rd Kyle Busch -442

2009:
1st Jimmie Johnson 5086 points
2nd Jeff Gordon -6 points
3rd Tony Stewart -41 points


2004: Jimmie was pretty much clinched out
2005: No contest to the #20
2006: Both the #17 and #48 were driving hard at the end, both were in the top 10, could have gone either way easily.
2007: No contest to the #24
2008: If that bs penalty that shouldn't have existed is excluded, no contest to the #99, if it is included, Jimmie would have won marginally by 4 points, and Jack Roush's statement on how he'd feel if he'd lose due to that penalty would become true.
2009: Jimmie won in only the last race, would have been an interesting controversy since Tony would have been wrecked by Juan Monterry Jack*** in the final race, costing him the championship (he would have been at least in the top5 with the car he had, rather than an outside top-20 finish), and the outcome would be decided by the two teammates that were battling for 4th-through-6th.

So either way Jimmie would have only won his championships barely, and he sure as hell wouldn't have four-in-a-row. Jeff Gordon has been screwed more than his fair share, and the chase just butchers the series, being the only thing worse to competition than the COT in NASCAR, imo. If you like the chase fine by me, but I simply can not.

Regarding all that crap about who would have won under the old system....

You do realize that everyone would have raced differently under the old system if it were actually still in place?

Its like saying (enter team name here) would have made the playoffs under the old divisional system in (enter sport name here).

Your giving out championships to drivers who are no longer worried about racing under that format.

I wonder if Mark Martin had won 4 in a row if we would be having this conversation? hmm....

 

[dalejrgamer]

Like an average NASCAR race (okay fine) some really boring race in California, this argument is going around in circles. I personally hate the Chase because it has done bad for the sport (it feels manufactured, but I'm sure the above poster would counter that), but that's just me.

May I add that since 2004, it's just domination.

(by above poster, I mean MattSRD28. Screw you, Shift, for beating me)

 

[Markfan]

Regarding all that crap about who would have won under the old system....

You do realize that everyone would have raced differently under the old system if it were actually still in place?

Its like saying (enter team name here) would have made the playoffs under the old divisional system in (enter sport name here).

Your giving out championships to drivers who are no longer worried about racing under that format.

I wonder if Mark Martin had won 4 in a row if we would be having this conversation? hmm....

Does it change how much it appears that Jimmie is dominating? The answer is yes.

And I'm not biased like that, it would still be awkward even if Mark won via the chase.

 

[Shift]

Does it change how much it appears that Jimmie is dominating? The answer is yes.

What I meant in that statement was that JJ would dominate under either of the two points systems actually being used by Nascar in today's world...not applying the old system to the past years.

 

[Markfan]

What I meant in that statement was that JJ would dominate under either of the two points systems actually being used by Nascar in today's world...not applying the old system to the past years.

It's still used today in the Nationwide series and Craftsman series, albeit with a modification of the winner's points total.

 

[Mike24]

*sigh*

Yeah, the Chase is a 10 race season...

The NBA playoffs is a 16-28 game season...

The MLB playoffs is a 11-19 game season...

The NFL playoffs is a 3-4 game season...

The list goes on, and it's a completely pointless argument. The Chase is here. The Chase has already done worlds of good for the sport. Any champion from 2004-2009 is just as much a champion as 2003 & earlier.

I think I've already made this argument before...but I couldn't find the post, so I'll just rehash it.

You can't compare how NASCAR crowns its champion to how the other sports crown their champions.

Playoffs are necessary in the other sports because the teams don't play every other team every week. The playoffs serve as a weeding out process...eliminating the bad teams so that the good teams can face each other. The playoff teams then face off 1 on 1 (which still poses questions as each team has not played every other team), until a champion is crowned. Controversial, still, but that's how they do it...and its necessary because on any given week, a 0-8 team could surprise an 8-0 team in a game that the the 8-0 team won't have a chance to avenge.


NASCAR is special, in that its entire season is a weeding out process. You face every other driver in every race, all season long. Taking the underdog-favorite example from the prior paragraph, in NASCAR, a top 5 driver may have a bad race and get beat by mediocre drivers, but that driver will have a chance to get those points back the other 35 weeks, when they normally outperform the mediocre drivers. That's why playoffs in Auto Racing are unneeded, and make absolutely NO SENSE. By the end of the season you have seen who is the best, and weeded out the rest, because they've faced each other in every single race. You have crowned a champion who has outperformed the others throughout the entire year. The chase takes away from that.

Look at the standings now. Martin, Montoya, and Hamlin are all outside of the top 12. If we were on the old system, they would already be in a tough place as far as championship hopes go. Instead, they just need to get to 12th, and wait for the points to reset, in order to have a shot. The Chase serves as a championship mulligan for the drivers who got out to a very slow start to the year, but heat up to get into the top 12, towards race 26. While every race is crucial to the championship, and the first 26 are important for getting into the Chase, the first 26 are cheapened, in that if you have a pitiful start to the year, but a great summer, instead of hoping to get to the top 5 in points, you now have a legitimate shot at the title when the points reset.

 

[MattSRD28]

It's still used today in the Nationwide series and Craftsman series, albeit with a modification of the winner's points total.

True, but that doesn't prove a whole lot. It'd be like saying the World Series is unnecessary because Minor League Baseball doesn't have the same playoff format as Major League Baseball.

You can't compare how NASCAR crowns its champion to how the other sports crown their champions.

Playoffs are necessary in the other sports because the teams don't play every other team every week. The playoffs serve as a weeding out process...eliminating the bad teams so that the good teams can face each other. The playoff teams then face off 1 on 1 (which still poses questions as each team has not played every other team), until a champion is crowned. Controversial, still, but that's how they do it...and its necessary because on any given week, a 0-8 team could surprise an 8-0 team in a game that the the 8-0 team won't have a chance to avenge.


NASCAR is special, in that its entire season is a weeding out process. You face every other driver in every race, all season long. Taking the underdog-favorite example from the prior paragraph, in NASCAR, a top 5 driver may have a bad race and get beat by mediocre drivers, but that driver will have a chance to get those points back the other 35 weeks, when they normally outperform the mediocre drivers. That's why playoffs in Auto Racing are unneeded, and make absolutely NO SENSE. By the end of the season you have seen who is the best, and weeded out the rest, because they've faced each other in every single race. You have crowned a champion who has outperformed the others throughout the entire year. The chase takes away from that.

Fair enough, but keep in mind that I was pointing out the playoff systems in other sports to answer the charge of the Chase being a 10 race season. It's not, just like the playoffs in other sports aren't mini-seasons making their respective regular season pointless aren't.

I agree with your illustration of how Nascar's championship is different from other sports. That's why Nascar doesn't have something like the finale of the movie "Cars" with only 3 cars racing against each other for the championship.

What I think you're missing is that the Chase is exactly what you described above. By the end of a 26-race "regular season" (for lack of a better term), we know who's the best, or at least the top 12, because they've faced each other in every single race. What the Chase does is allow those top 12 to race each other in a climactic 10-race battle with the best of the 12 being the champion.

You say the Chase takes away from the champion outperforming his opponents, but I'd argue that the champion in the Chase is forced to work even harder because his 11 opponents are closer to him than any champion's next 11 opponents were prior to 2004. The Chase is "playoffs" in the sense of a reduced number of players are eligible for the championship, but it actually increased the number of championship contenders per year. To sum up, the Chase simply took what you're looking for in a Nascar champion & what it takes to become a Nascar champion, and amplified it for the purposes of hype & increased fan interest. This has, in turn, greatly benefitted Nascar in terms of ratings, brand awareness, fan base growth and other areas, and made it easier for some teams to bring in big-dollar sponsors by creating the goal of "making the Chase."

Look at the standings now. Martin, Montoya, and Hamlin are all outside of the top 12. If we were on the old system, they would already be in a tough place as far as championship hopes go. Instead, they just need to get to 12th, and wait for the points to reset, in order to have a shot. The Chase serves as a championship mulligan for the drivers who got out to a very slow start to the year, but heat up to get into the top 12, towards race 26. While every race is crucial to the championship, and the first 26 are important for getting into the Chase, the first 26 are cheapened, in that if you have a pitiful start to the year, but a great summer, instead of hoping to get to the top 5 in points, you now have a legitimate shot at the title when the points reset.

Yeah, so the Chase gives 6th-12th a little bit more hope at the championship, but realistically, it's not a whole lot. I believe the lowest in the standings any eventual champion began the Chase was 4th. I'm sure someone came from 4th to win the championship at some point before the Chase. I see where you're coming from, but what you're saying is like saying a sub .500 team can make the NBA playoffs in the East and thus have a legitimate shot at the championship. While it's true in theory, no one ever really expects the 8th seed in the East to actually win anything, but it still gives that team something to hang their hat on at the end of the year. I know that's not really the Nascar way of doing things, but I still say that it's a good thing for the sport for the 8th-12th teams to have that little point of credit that they can present to sponsors.