Trucks on Eldora 2013

[Markfan]

The duels most of the field has a provisional and is locked in, only 2 or 3 actually have to finish in a good enough position to start.

That's only because the top 35 rule exists, it was far from most of the field being locked in during the past.

 

[RP Motorsports]

Can anyone explain what the difference is between the Duels and a heat race system at Eldora?

I've heard the Duels referred to as Daytona's heat races and people don't have an issue with those at all

I'll just preface this by saying that we obviously dont know if heats are going to be used, and if so, what the procedure will be.

That being said, the difference is, heat races are usually used to determine who runs the feature. So in other words, theres no "top __" rule in place. Whereas the Duels are used to determine a few transfer spots, with 3/4 of the field already locked in.

Again, we dont know exactly what procedures NASCAR has in mind, but traditionally, heat races are used to determine who runs the feature (and what the starting order will be). So its a huge difference between traditional heat races, and the Duels.

 

[MattSRD28]

The Eldora race is middle of the season, and if its a true heat race, it is going to bump out people (points leaders or not) that either wreck out and don't finish the heats, or that aren't fast enough. It could virtually be anyone... if it is to be believed that true heat races are going to happen and its done like any other heat races, where the top finishers race and the bottom finishers don't.

I'm getting tired of having to repeat myself about the near impossibility that a championship contending team could DNQ for Eldora by something happening to them in the heat races. It's not going to happen, one way or the other. In my lifetime, Nascar has always had some form of guarantee that top teams will make the show every single week regardless. This was true in the provisionals days, although many people didn't really understand how it worked. This was emphatically true once the top 25 rule was put in place.

Anyway.... some of you are adamant that this is a good thing, and some of us are adamant that it isn't. Some like change, some don't.

Here's the problem.

When you express concerns that are logically rebuffed, this is what you fall back on and repeat ad nauseum. It makes it very difficult to have an actual discussion because even though you make invalid comparisons, assumptions that are contrary to 64 years of Nascar history, and the like that, as Phantomguy24 correctly demonstrated do not logically follow, you just fall back on this and then a few posts later launch back into the same concerns that were refuted.

It becomes an endless cycle that ultimately goes nowhere.

I have followed the truck series since it started and it has always been one of my very favorite series. The racing is 10 times better than any other series.... and now they seem to want to go changing things just to add a dirt race to make it all a spectacle.

Atlanta and Kentucky both dropped off the already dangerously short schedule. Nascar was looking at replacing at least one of those dates with a relatively obscure short track race, like the ones that were held in the early years of the series. Then, the chance for Eldora happened.

When given the choice between relative obscurity and spectacle, any business worth their free cash flow will choose the spectacle every single time without giving it a second thought. There's no such thing as bad publicity. Dirt track racing is a part of Nascar's history. Dirt track racing is a part of the background of almost every successful Nascar driver. Racing at Eldora is an exponentially better opportunity than an obscure short track race that maybe 8,000 would show up for.

To dismiss that as a "spectacle" is to completely ignore the business side of Nascar, without which there is no Nascar.

That being said, the difference is, heat races are usually used to determine who runs the feature. So in other words, theres no "top __" rule in place. Whereas the Duels are used to determine a few transfer spots, with 3/4 of the field already locked in.

We're not talking about what heat races usually are used for. We're talking about what the Eldora heat races could possibly be used to do. Since Eldora is a points race on the schedule, unless Nascar makes a shocking move and suspends the Top 25 rule just for Eldora, the Top 25 rule will be in place. Speculation about Eldora's possible heat races should proceed from that standpoint.

Again, we dont know exactly what procedures NASCAR has in mind, but traditionally, heat races are used to determine who runs the feature (and what the starting order will be). So its a huge difference between traditional heat races, and the Duels.

Actually the heat races will be just like the Duels in terms of function.

"Duel" is short for qualifying race, which is a synonym for heat race. The Duels are heat races. They're just run on Thursday, and only happen once all year in any of the 3 major touring series. With Eldora, that could very well change. But if the Eldora heats happen, then much like the Duels, the Top 25 rule will still be in place ensuring top teams' entry in the feature regardless of their heat performance.

 

[Raybee1970]

I'm getting tired of having to repeat myself about the near impossibility that a championship contending team could DNQ for Eldora by something happening to them in the heat races.

Funny... I feel the same way about having to repeat myself for a differing opinion than yours.

Face it, you like the idea, and I don't. It is called having a different opinion.

Have fun with the rest of this thread and your spectacle of a truck race. I'm done with it.

 

[RP Motorsports]

I'm getting tired of having to repeat myself about the near impossibility that a championship contending team could DNQ for Eldora by something happening to them in the heat races. It's not going to happen, one way or the other. In my lifetime, Nascar has always had some form of guarantee that top teams will make the show every single week regardless. This was true in the provisionals days, although many people didn't really understand how it worked. This was emphatically true once the top 25 rule was put in place.

They've taken the guarantee out of the Cup series. As I said before, its not likely a big name will miss a race, but its certainly not guaranteed. Theres a difference between something not likely to happen, and something guaranteed not to happen. So if they've already taken that step in the Cup series, I dont find it that far out of the realm of possibility they could take it another step, especially in a lower series that doesnt depend on star power to sell tickets.

You're making assumptions that theres no way a rule like that could ever happen. Well it just did happen with eliminating the top 35 rule in Cup. So if that step was taken, why couldnt another be taken?

When you express concerns that are logically rebuffed, this is what you fall back on and repeat ad nauseum. It makes it very difficult to have an actual discussion because even though you make invalid comparisons, assumptions that are contrary to 64 years of Nascar history, and the like that, as Phantomguy24 correctly demonstrated do not logically follow, you just fall back on this and then a few posts later launch back into the same concerns that were refuted.

It becomes an endless cycle that ultimately goes nowhere.

I'm not going to speak for Raybee, but because I've had some similar opinions or whatever you want to call them, I will say this -

Both Raybee and I have presented concerns about heat races being implemented, with the possibility of not having a "top 25 rule" in place. You've refuted them with your opinions and assumptions. And thats ok. From what I gather, you dont think it could ever happen in this world. Well, we're not ready to make that declaration, as we dont feel as confident as you do. And thats what having different opinions is all about. It's your opinion NASCAR would never do it. Well as I've said several times, they already have done it with the Cup series. And once again, while its not likely a big name or top running team DNQ's under the new procedure, its not absolutely guaranteed either. So to say NASCAR would never take out the guarantee, is not accurate, because they've already done it. And it's my opinion that its not completely unfathomable that they could take another step with it.

The reason I say all of this, is because you believe very strongly in your opinions, just as I do, and just as Raybee does, and just as a lot of people do. But to say that its difficult to have a discussion due to other's opinions not logically folowing, just because they differ from your's, is not very fair (or open-minded) at all. I've presented my opinion several times now, and it has just as much logic as your's does.

We're not talking about what heat races usually are used for. We're talking about what the Eldora heat races could possibly be used to do. Since Eldora is a points race on the schedule, unless Nascar makes a shocking move and suspends the Top 25 rule just for Eldora, the Top 25 rule will be in place. Speculation about Eldora's possible heat races should proceed from that standpoint.

Actually the heat races will be just like the Duels in terms of function.

"Duel" is short for qualifying race, which is a synonym for heat race. The Duels are heat races. They're just run on Thursday, and only happen once all year in any of the 3 major touring series. With Eldora, that could very well change. But if the Eldora heats happen, then much like the Duels, the Top 25 rule will still be in place ensuring top teams' entry in the feature regardless of their heat performance.

Similar to you, I too get tired of having to repeat myself, but I'll do it for the sake of the discussion.

I'm not talking about possibilities of some special rule (or rules being changed) JUST for the Eldora race. NASCAR is considering changing procedures and implementing heat races for the entire schedule. I'm not suggesting anything about just an Eldora rule.

Aside from that, those last couple paragraphs are just assumptions on your part. "The top 25 rule will be in place", "NASCAR will not get rid of the top 25 rule". You dont know that for sure, just as none of us do. You are assuming that, as thats been your opinion. And thats ok, as you are entitled to that opinion. Just like I'm entitled to my opinion that maybe NASCAR would eliminate the top 25 rule, just like they did with the top 35 rule, and maybe even go further with it.

Thats been my whole point with this. I havnt been engaging in this discussion to deem your opinion invalid or illogical. Which is exactly what you are doing to mine. Its your opinion that this whole idea or proposition would never be implemented by NASCAR, mainly because prior history doesnt show it happening. And its my opinion that its not completely unfathomable, mainly because they've already taken a step in that direction with the recent elimination of the top 35 rule in Cup. Thats my whole point in all of this - opinions and views differ. I'm not discrediting your opinion, as its just that - your opinion. So why the discrediting of mine?

 

[celticfang]

To change the subject, let's assume (and it's a major assumption here) that the Eldora race is successful, would they go ARCA and run on another track, or go after short tracks/road courses?

 

[MattSRD28]

So to say NASCAR would never take out the guarantee, is not accurate, because they've already done it.

Sorry but that's not accurate.

The top 35 rule was eliminated, yes, but it will be replaced with a slightly different system that still makes it basically impossible for a championship contending team to DNQ. Different system, same basic guarantee. And in true Nascar tradition, it's an indirect guarantee.

Here's how it's an indirect guarantee. The new system will be fastest 36 cars make the field, then 6 best in owner's points amongest remaining teams, and one spot for a past champion or 7th highest in owner points amongest those remaining in the absence of a past champion. Just how likely is it do you think that a championship-contending team DNQ's in that system? I'd put the chances of that somewhere around the moon exploding because a solar flare erupted from Jupiter as it becomes a star 2010: The Year We Make Contact-style.

For further evidence, go back into the qualifying results last year and see who wasn't in the top 36 fastest, and see if there were more than 7 championship contenders on that list in any one race. Let me know if you can find one race with 8 or more championship contenders not in the fastest 36.

You're making assumptions that theres no way a rule like that could ever happen.

I haven't made one single assumption. I'm saying the idea that Nascar would open the door for a championship-contending team to DNQ is contrary to 64 years of its history, and is therefore highly unlikely. That is not an assumption. That is a statement based on facts. If you have facts to the contrary, I'd like to hear them. Otherwise the statement stands.

Does that make it impossible for Nascar to potentially open the door for a championship-contender's DNQ? No. Highly unlikely that that would happen? Absolutely.

But to say that its difficult to have a discussion due to other's opinions not logically folowing, just because they differ from your's, is not very fair (or open-minded) at all.

Sure it would be, but that's not what I have said here. They don't follow logically because they differ from mine. They don't follow logically because they don't follow logically. I know it's not what people like to be told, but it happens to be true in this case. Yes, it is difficult to have a discussion when statements and opinions not only aren't following logically, but are repeated even when they're pointed out to be logically flawed by multiple people.

So why the discrediting of mine?

Haven't discredited anyone's opinion. Just pointed out the unlikelihood of certain concerns, and how last I knew Nascar and Eldora were working on a plan to install SAFER barriers at Eldora after you brought up how Eldora currently doesn't have them.

Also how the comparison to the Duels at Daytona qualifying races being a valid comparison to these possible heat races actually is a valid one.

I think you might be confusing disagreement with an attempt to discredit. Discrediting usually involves name calling of some kind, which I have not done. I have disagreed with you and Raybee, and demonstrated exactly what my basis for said disagreement is. That's something entirely different from an act of discrediting.


Now I'll start providing some opinions. Here goes.

It might surprise you that when I first heard the Eldora rumor, I cringed. I didn't like the idea of having a dirt race. It seemed like a backward move somehow. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized that it would work as an event, and that event would be a stronger one than if the CWTS went to a more obscure short track. It'll get butts in those seats, eyes on the screen, and the intrigue level up. Those are extremely effective lubricants for the money machine, which is what the CWTS needs more of. That's why I came out and said what I said earlier because I was reading some of the very same thoughts that crossed my mind until I thought the idea through more, and from a little different perspective.

I know many race fans only want to look at ideas from one side, and would love to ignore the business side of racing completely, but to do that is to engage in a fantasy. Nascar doesn't exist without the business side of racing. Eldora is a great idea from a business standpoint, and a racing standpoint in terms of how unique a racing event it will be for a major Nascar national touring series. It'll be the first time it's happened in my lifetime. I'll tune in for it. I'm sure many others will as well. That's why it will work, just as the Prelude has worked so well.

 

[TJBartel]

If Buesher and the #31 not failed to make the Phoenix race in the spring of '11 he would be back to back CWTS champ. Championship caliber teams can fail to qualify for races, though it is rare.

 

[RP Motorsports]

Sorry but that's not accurate.

The top 35 rule was eliminated, yes, but it will be replaced with a slightly different system that still makes it basically impossible for a championship contending team to DNQ. Different system, same basic guarantee. And in true Nascar tradition, it's an indirect guarantee.

Its absolutely accurate. That is, unless you have your own definition of "guaranteed" that differs from the actual definition.

I'm not debating the likelyhood of it. In fact, I've stated numerous times that its not likely. And I'll say it again - its not likely to happen. But once again, theres a difference between not likely, and guaranteed.

I haven't made one single assumption.

These are assumptions -

Actually the heat races will be just like the Duels in terms of function.

...the near impossibility that a championship contending team could DNQ for Eldora by something happening to them in the heat races. It's not going to happen, one way or the other.

But if the Eldora heats happen, then much like the Duels, the Top 25 rule will still be in place ensuring top teams' entry in the feature regardless of their heat performance.

I'm not necessarily saying that its not ok to make assumptions. But either way, they are assumptions. And without qualifying them with "I think" or "I believe" or "I dont think", they're assumptions being stated as fact, instead of as your opinion. Which is exactly what it is. You dont know for sure what the format will be if heats are indeed implemented. None of us know that, because NASCAR hasnt publicly said anything about it. I understand you are very confident based on prior history, but you dont know that for sure, so its certainly not fact as of right now.

They don't follow logically because they differ from mine. They don't follow logically because they don't follow logically. I know it's not what people like to be told, but it happens to be true in this case. Yes, it is difficult to have a discussion when statements and opinions not only aren't following logically, but are repeated even when they're pointed out to be logically flawed by multiple people.

How do they not logically follow? We're talking opinions/views/beliefs here, not facts.

I've said it probably four or five (or maybe six to seven) times now, and I dont know how to strip it down any more than I already have -

Its your opinion that NASCAR would never take out the guarantee. Its my opinion that its not unfathomable (in other words, I'm not willing to say "never"). Thats it. Thats all there is to it. And yet, you're treating it as if your opinion is fact, and my opinion doesnt logically follow, and is invalid.

Haven't discredited anyone's opinion. Just pointed out the unlikelihood of certain concerns.

I think you might be confusing disagreement with an attempt to discredit. Discrediting usually involves name calling of some kind, which I have not done. I have disagreed with you and Raybee, and demonstrated exactly what my basis for said disagreement is. That's something entirely different from an act of discrediting.

Discrediting doesnt have to involve name-calling, or even confrontational dialogue of any kind. Discrediting is refusing to accept something as being valid or true. It may not be the intention, but thats exactly what you are doing.

And thats been my whole point in even engaging in this part of the discussion all together. We have differing opinions on a real simple matter. I'm not trying to tell you that the sky is pink. Again, your opinion being NASCAR would never do something, while my opinion being that I'm not willing to say "never". Thats really what it all boils down do. It cant get any more simple than that. It would be no different than you expressing your opinion that you believe Johnson will win the championship next year, and me expressing my opinion that I believe Earnhardt Jr. will win the championship (Disclaimer: not actually saying I think that. Its just for the sake of an example). Its the same exact thing.

You are right that you have disagreed and stated your basis for disagreeing. The only difference with this case, you believe so strongly in your opinion, that you're deeming a conflicting opinion as invalid or not logically following. In other words, you're discrediting it.

Its just like with politics, religion or anything else. Left wings believe one thing, and right wings believe another. And neither is any more valid than the opposite. Some may believe in a place called Heaven and a spirit that controls all, and some might not believe in any of that. Again, its differing beliefs, with neither any more valid than the next.

And that is exactly the point I've been trying to get across. I'm not necessarily saying its intentional, but it seems you arent willing to recognize or acknowledge (at least in this case) that an opinion differing from yours is not any less valid. Because at the end of the day, its not.

I know many race fans only want to look at ideas from one side, and would love to ignore the business side of racing completely, but to do that is to engage in a fantasy. Nascar doesn't exist without the business side of racing. Eldora is a great idea from a business standpoint, and a racing standpoint in terms of how unique a racing event it will be for a major Nascar national touring series. It'll be the first time it's happened in my lifetime. I'll tune in for it. I'm sure many others will as well. That's why it will work, just as the Prelude has worked so well.

I agree that it could be good for the business side of things in some aspects. I wont declare that it WILL be, but rather that it COULD be. At the same time, I think it could also be at the expense of putting teams in a tough spot. Which I dont really like seeing NASCAR do with the third tier series. As I've said before, I dont like the idea of teams being forced to spend the money for this one race. Especially since money is tight to begin with, and I believe its not a race thats going to make or break the series.

I'd probably feel at least somewhat different if the series was in a desperate place, or in dire straits. But because its not, I just dont feel its necessary. While it may provide a spike in viewership and attention for that one race (or even a short time), I dont think its going to have any significant lasting effect. Whereas on the flip side, it could have some kind of significant or lasting effect on some of the teams who are going to be in a bind trying to run this race. And I'd just hate to see that happen. I'd hate to see teams put in a bad spot, or even pushed over the edge, just for this one out-of-the-box spectacle type race.

Those are just my feelings and opinions on the matter. I certainly hope it can help the series and not hurt any teams. At the end of the day, I personally could do without it, and I think the series could do without it.

 

[celticfang]

But what would you replace it with? Another 1.5 miler? A short track where 8,000 people show up? A road ourse that the teams have to build another truck for?

It's unique and another reason the Truck series stands out and isn't just a rebodied Cup series. Looking back through the Truck series history, it's always stood out in one way or another.

Before 1999, half time breaks (which personally I wish they'd bring back), it taught drivers tire managment and worked great from a TV standpoint, they went to tracks the Cup/Busch at the time never touched, Flemington, Topeka, Mesa Marin, Tuscon and so forth.

Then from 1999, they went to Portland, they went to I-70, they kept their own identity but in the past few years it seems to me like NASCAR is trying to make the Nwide/Trucks into clones of the Cup series. Okay, I get that it costs less money to have all thre series running at the same tracks, but to my (sleep deprived) mind it hurts those series.

 

[Henderson]

Looks like it will happen. Stewart and Dillon doing some testing.

[ame=http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6V7GJdn9rZE]NASCAR Camping World Truck Series test at Eldora: Inaugural Mudsummer Classic set for July 24, 2013 - YouTube[/ame]

EDIT: Just realized the video is old. Man am I behind.

 

[NNS]

Looks like it will happen. Stewart and Dillon doing some testing.

NASCAR Camping World Truck Series test at Eldora: Inaugural Mudsummer Classic set for July 24, 2013 - YouTube

Already posted

 

[Henderson]

Yeah, I didn't check the date until now. I honestly forgot all about this thread. Looking back through, it looks a big war broke out. lmao

 

[NNS]

Amen.

Hopefully some more people within the middle of it all will start to recognize it too.

I was thinking the same thing concerning the trucks

 

[Cody Ficker]

Amen.

Hopefully some more people within the middle of it all will start to recognize it too.

It would have to be a mass weekend long exodus of the top-tier teams and championship contenders for NASCAR to think the new road and dirt package won't work. The trucks will be flooded with stars and ringers from Cup, IndyCar, and road racing those weekends. The low number of full time drivers would not be very noticeable.

The thing that is interesting is how the ringer concept might be back this year. Get a guy that's great at road or dirt racing in your truck and win because the truck drivers are just rookies and novices at everything. They don't have the experience on those surfaces and configurations so they'll be trounced on by pros.

 

[RP Motorsports]

It would have to be a mass weekend long exodus of the top-tier teams and championship contenders for NASCAR to think the new road and dirt package won't work. The trucks will be flooded with stars and ringers from Cup, IndyCar, and road racing those weekends. The low number of full time drivers would not be very noticeable.

Its not really the top teams I worry about - its the little guy. Its the teams who are going up against all odds and doing things the grassroots way. The ones who started out with nothing, and are trying to climb what seems like an insurmountable mountain. Teams that work out of a home garage, or a little gas-station-style service bay, putting in 12-16 hours a day every day, just trying to prepare a car/truck (that will pass inspection) in time to get it loaded up so they can drive for 15 hours straight through the night to make it to the race track on time. And they do that every single week. No days off, no free time, no family time, nothing but turning wrenches and hustling.

Then all of a sudden, they get hit with "Hey we think its a great idea to go run a dirt track because the owner is a big-name Cup driver, and therefore his name will garner attention and sell tickets. Oh and by the way, lets do one road course too." So now these teams are faced with the predicament of having to build a truck specifically for one dirt race, and build another truck specifically for one road course race. Mind you, these teams put everything they have (time/money/effort) into making it to the race track, and then using whatever purse money they receive to do it all over again next week. They dont have the resources to build two trucks for two special races, which then means, they arent going to be able to show up, race, and collect a little purse money to keep it going. Thats what my concern is. The little guys trying to make it.

About a year ago, I was in NC for a few days at my cousins working on a Modified. I go on facebook and Jen Jo Cobb has a message posted asking if anyone would like to "donate" some time to help unload two cars/transporters, among other things. We went down that morning and ended up spending 9 hours helping that day - unloading two transporters, pulling two motors and putting one in, and a doing a few other things. You couldnt imagine what she has to go through every single week to keep racing, and how grateful she was for everyone that helped out, even the people who wernt mechanically inclined and just did some cleaning/organizing for a couple hours, and that kind of thing. Its those (grassroots) racers that I hate seeing get screwed by some sudden urge to run a dirt track with the 3rd tier series, or something along those lines.

I'll never understand the hate on the Dillions....lol.

I know right. Just because they have money doesn't mean they're bad drivers. lol

I think people just dont like when talent isnt the number one factor. Which is understandable. With most anything in life, its about earning your way and earning your keep, so it tends to rub people the wrong way when someone gets handed something that they didnt necessarily earn.

That being said, the Dillons do have some talent. I dont think that can be disputed. However, they probably wouldnt have had such an easy or favorable path if it wernt for their grandfather (RC). I think thats what people take issue with. Its seeing these young kids getting served the most ideal racing situations on a silver platter, when there are others who deserve it just as much (if not more), and have earned it.

Unfortunately though, thats not always how it works in the big leagues of racing. Especially when money or family is involved.

 

[NNS]

When did you get to help Jennifer? When she was on her own team or with Rick Russell?