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Watkins Glen Too Dangerous?

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zaw24fan

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*READ BEFORE VOTING*

This question has been "bugging" me ever since Jeff Gordon and Sam Hornish Jr's wreck and I really began to think about it after Jason Leffler's crash in the Nationwide Friday practice, is Watkins Glen too dangerous? Look at the facts and what Sam Hornish Jr's crew chief had to say that can be found on NASCAR.com. The Glen doesn't have any SAFER Barriers, but only steel guard rails. Also, they have tire barriers and sand traps. But are tire barriers, sand traps, and guard rails safe? Don't get me wrong, NASCAR made a very good call putting in the tire barriers to soften the blow and sand traps to slow the car down, but tire barriers aren't SAFER Barriers people. The sand traps are also in places that they need to....almost. Anyone that overshoots the bus stop flies right into a sand trap, slowing the car down. Also, anyone that wheel hops turn 10 will fly right into the sand trap. But what about turn 9? That is the FASTEST corner on the racetrack, shouldn't a sand trap be put there? Also, why is the Glen nothing but guard rails? It is the only track on the circuit that still has guard rails. Why not put in SAFER barriers? Unlike tire barriers, SAFER Barriers give and absorb impact. Tire barriers take the impact and throws it back out onto the car, sending it back on the racetrack, endangering the other cars. Let's take a look at this:

  • 2007 Centurion Boats at the Glen: Big wreck started after car gets turned into guard rail and comes back onto racetrack through the esses.
  • 2008 Centurion Boats at the Glen: Huge wreck started after retaliation spin turns David Gilliland into foam barrier off of turn 10, comes back onto track, blocking entire exit of turn 10.
  • 2009 Heluva Good Sour Creams and Dips at the Glen: Kasey Kahne turns Sam Hornish Jr. into turn 9 tire barrier, sending him back across the racetrack in front of Jeff Gordon and Jeff Burton, sparking a six-car pile up.

The common denominator is a car ricochets back onto the racetrack and collects more than it probably should of. So now the question comes: Is Watkins Glen Too Dangerous? I've provided a poll that you can vote on, but you can further explain your choice in the post.

Everyone's going to have their own opinion about this, and there may be plenty of disagreements, but I think the Glen is too dangerous with what they have. That track has too much speed just to have tire barriers, sand traps, and steel guard rails. Something must be done such as putting in concrete walls/SAFER Barriers and putting a sand trap in turn 9. Again. everyone has their own opinion.
 
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WKRT_Matty

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I agree, it is pretty dangerous in certain spots. Safer barriers, sand off of 9 and some concrete for the rest of the walls would go a long way towards safety. And thats the thing, it wouldnt take much to bring it up to spec, so why dont they?
 

Markfan

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Well since the most dangerous location is the turn right after the bus stop, maybe they should bring back the boot into NASCAR so that they don't speed up as much entering turn 6.
 

DavidCarter2

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the world does not revolve around NASCAR, so if any track modifications should be made it should reflect all series that run there. And personally i wouldn't touch the track in any way shape or form.
 

Brak61

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The one thing I noticed in all three examples you posted is that someone got turned. I sounds to me like the most dangerous thing is other drivers. I'm sure some other barrier system would help somewhat, the tire barrier just rebounds the cars back onto the track. Or maybe they could move the barriers back some, I'm unsure of the obstacles to doing that, maybe stands, parking or drainage culverts keep that from being feasible. If it weren't for rebounding back out onto the track I'd think the tire barrier would be a softer impact than a steel tubing and foam SAFER barrier, not sure on that however.

Racing will never be totally safe no matter what the track does.
 

John Gregorio

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I actually consider Watkins Glen one of the safest places to race. The track doesn't need a safer barrier. Why might you ask? The cars don't go that fast for the majority of the track compared to other tracks. Also the guardrails work perfect as well do the tire walls. Tires are much softer than the safer barrier as well. I consider Daytona/Talladega to be the most dangerous track.
 

evan07

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The tracks fine. But whats crazy is on ESPN's nascar now some guy suggest Jeff Gordon skip Bristol because of his back, which I don't think he would do. NASCAR drivers are athlets so he can race with some pain. If he did I would loose all respect I have for him. If you wanna talk about driving hurt look at Ricky Rudd after his big flip at daytona and Dale Sr after the Pocono wreck.
 

rs500blake

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the offending wall could be removed for the short configureation to give them some extra run off,and just put back in as a tempory barrier when the full track is used. in most cases tyre wall work extreamly well with most other formulas espicially single seaters, its just with nascars they are so strong and heavy that when they crash they dont really give so all the energy is directed at whatever the hit.
 

Fisha695

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Safer Barriers have the same rebound effect that the tire barriers do (see the Aarons car at Texas the other year)

The track itself has always been a dangerous track, no matter what series races there, or when the race was. However that danger is part of racing.

But I will say this, with the new road-course in NJ the Glen only has a few more years left in NASCAR. Look for the Trucks or Nationwide cars to be at the Jersey track within a year or two and the Cup cars to follow shortly there-after.
 

TheShermanator

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The wall that Leffler hit could probably be looked at. It's at a very bad angle. The way it's designed, it's basically throwing the cars back onto the track. They could probably back it up and put it perpendicular to the direction of the race track.

As far as the Armco railing around the track, that's just about as good as SAFER barriers. It's not one solid object cemented into the ground. It still deforms and moves with an impact. You can see that on Gordon's impact with the wall.
 

Josh Mertz

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Those Guardrails saved Steve Park's (and maybe even Jr's) life at Pocono back in 02. If they were concrete it would have been awhole lot worse.
 

Fisha695

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Here are some other hard wrecks at the Glen.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YNsk4GjM2I"]YouTube - 1991 Budweiser At The Glen - JD McDuffie Fatal Crash[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98En4P1dyl4"]YouTube - 1993 IMSA GTO Watkins Glen Nissan crash[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2r4zXFfQI8"]YouTube - 1991 WatkinsGlen - Tommy Kendall crash[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjpp4Nfu7Ow"]YouTube - Nascar Busch North Series at Watkins Glen in 2002[/ame]
 
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jazarovitz

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I remember the Wreck in '91. I was watching it. Any race track can have a dangerous section. Look back to Bristol with Michael Waltrip hitting the gate opening. I remember Jimmie Johnson loosing his brakes going into turn 1 in what used to be the Busch series and hitting the tires and foam at 150+ and stood on his roof shaking his wheel in the air because he survived. If you had concrete with safer barriers I am sure he would not have. Road Course are completely different than ovals and require different safety measures. I feel Watkins Glen and their personnel do a great job keep the track as safe as they can. Any track is dangerous when you have race cars at a high rate of speed.
 

hendrick48

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Ok, with racing, comes risk. Hell I would rather race and die...then not race at all. If you dont want to race then you dont have too. So since it is a risk...nothing should be done. You should keep the drivers safe, but you cant protect em from a fluke. You can have radar to help you see a tornado...but the tornado aint gonna vanish because of the radar.
 

MattSRD28

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I actually agree with the original poster in that a tire barrier positioned such that any car hitting it at high speed would most likely bounce back onto the race track is a bad idea.

While it doesn't prove that tire barriers in general are bad, these crashes have shown that soft walls that bounce a car back into traffic is a problem that should be corrected. All it really takes is a change in the angle of the tire barrier in relation to the race track, and the problem should be solved.

Of course, the Glen prefers ARMCO-barriers (blue guard rails) and tire barriers to anything because they are the cheapest possible to use. Again, that's not in itself a bad thing, but the track does need to be willing to make corrections where safety is concerned. I believe this is one of those times.
 

dalejrgamer

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Let's analyze the wrecks Fisha695 posted:

#1: caused because of top speed and a loose wheel. McDuffie's wife sued the track and NASCAR but settled out of court some time later.

#2: Caused by a blind hill. I don't think the driver saw that coming. Keep in mind that they had to accommodate the tunnel as well, so this isn't really preventable.

#3: See #1, except less severe (sorta) injury and no lawsuit

#4: See #2.

My point is you go to a race (or in this case, drive in one), you carry a risk that you will get injured. It's a fact I had to accept when I went to four Angels baseball games, although the closest I been to the field is under the suites, the rest are upper-level seating. Yes, it's not auto racing, but seeing a sporting event carries the same risk as well. No, not Final Destination level. Anyway, everyone involved knew the risk. The reason why they do it anyway is because...well, someone had to do it, not to mention that they love it.

You can Nerf up all the racing, it's still dangerous.

That being said, the turn 9 (or 5 if using the boot) armco/tire barrier might get some attention, but it has to apply to all racing on the track, not just NASCAR. So they might debate on whether they should even alter the barrier, if at all.
 

Fisha695

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That being said, the turn 9 (or 5 if using the boot) armco/tire barrier might get some attention, but it has to apply to all racing on the track, not just NASCAR. So they might debate on whether they should even alter the barrier, if at all.

I've been doing some looking on Google Earth and really no matter what you do there is always going to be a chance for a hard awkward hit at that part of the track because of how fast it is. Also there are really two problem areas at this part of the track. One is the entrance to the boot and two is the exit to the boot. The Exit isn't so much a problem, but the possibility is there.

So here is what I've come up with.


Blue = Just moving the current barrier back.
Pink = Putting in temporary wall that closes up the entrance to the boot, by connecting the turn wall to the straight wall
Yellowish Gold = Temporary close-off of the boot exit, either going from the straight wall across the gap, or from the blue wall across the gap.

The only problems I can think of is...
Blue = While farther away the wall is still there, and the end may end up "Pointer", which may not effect NASCAR, but could impact the safety of the wall whilst using the boot.
Pink = Simply creates the pinball effect to a major level
Yellowish/Gold = Same as pink.
 

Fisha695

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Honestly with the big heavy stockcars I don't really think the Boot would add anything to the race, yeah maybe going down into turn 8 there would be some out breaking opportunities, but other then that It wouldn't really do nothing but shorten the race distance (lap wise) and make the fans have to wait longer to see the cars come by.
 
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